Discourse about hg G and about the method too

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Location: Pisa (Italy)
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:34 am
Stephen Asciak
9 novembre
Again I have been removed from the Facebook page haplogroup G.. for posting this article. It is quite evident that certain individual or individuals are biased and dont allow open discussion if it contradicts there held beliefs and see it as a threat to there creditability. What happen to free speech. Is the hap G group a dictatorship?????
What happen to true science...free thinkers...questioning everything????
Hap G is Paleolithic Europe....
Genes once thought to have arrived with the first farmers, for instance, now seem to have been around much earlier. "Until now, it seemed clear this was something that came into Europe during the Neolithic," says Pontus Skoglund, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School. "It's an extremely interesting suggestion that they have."
Willerslev argues there was a single, genetically similar population sprawling across the continent, from Russia to the Middle East to northern Europe.
Sylvia Mast Bernard You were removed because of this? Was there something more to this story? Stephen Asciak you will have to ask TED KANDELL
Gioiello Tognoni What do you mean? That Ted Kandell is the responsible of this banishment? If so, I'll publish here which is the true origin of the Jewish G-s and which is the link between your haplotype and the Jewish one and who derives from whom...
Philip Seiflein this is truly hilarious....dna bias!
Carl Graham Weird that. You'd think that, if somebody was wrong, it'd make more sense to keep him around so you could point out where he was wrong and then show what the proper idea was. Generally speaking I consider removal of alternative opinions to your own as a sign that your own position is weak and there is an inability to accept that.
Now it is true that the internet is full of lunatic wackjobs and culling of the herd does have to happen. But I personally haven't seen anything that suggests that Mr. Asciak is unbalanced in any form and any argument of his I've ever seen has been well thought out and lucid. Now I can't say if he's right or wrong (and maybe it can't actually be determined at this point in time), but his argument seemed well thought out and worth consideration to me .
At least that's my opinion. When chance has unfortunately landed me in a moderating position I generally don't remove people unless they openly advocate illegal acts or claim to be posting from Rigel 17.
Luba Tabolova Gioiello Tognoni, would be interesting to hear you. If you want, even privately. I am the person who is able to hear what the others have to say without being judgmental and rude.
Gioiello Tognoni Luba, at this point it is very likely that Ted is the author of the entry on "Jews with haplogroup G" in Wikipedia. About Asciak's hg. he says:
"G2a3a -- A cluster of mostly Ashkenazi Jewish men from northeastern Europe is found in G2a3a persons negative for the G2a3a subgroup. Some samples from the western Mediterranean exist which may represent conversos. These men have distinctive values for two STR markers: DYS454=12 and DYS392=12".
but if we look at these haplotypes
ZGR8M Asciak Malta
14 22 15 15 10 13 14 11 12 10 12 11 29 16 8 9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12 13 14 15 9 10 19 20 15 14 15 17 36 36 11 10 14 12 17 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 12 11 22 22 15 10 12 12 15 8 21 20 13 11 13 10 11 11 12
14 22 15 10 13 14 11 12 11 12 12 29 17 8 9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12 13 14 15 9 10 19 20 15 15 15 17 33 36 11 11 14 13 18 11 9 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 11 22 22 15 10 12 12 14 8 21 20 13 11 13 10 11 11 12
HREM3 IRADI Cortale (Provincia di Catanzaro, Regione di Calabria), Italy
14 22 17 10 13 14 11 12 12 12 11 29 17 8 9 11 12 23 16 22 27 12 12 14 14 9 10 19 20 15 14 16 18 32 36 11 10 14 11 12 11 21 11 14 13 10 18 24 22 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 12 11 22 22 15 10 12 12 14 8 20 20 13 11 13 11 11 11 12 9 11 16 9 15 11 11 10 12 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 20 12
it is possible to demonstrate that the Jewish one derives from some Italian ones and not the other way around. I don't know if Asciak's origins are from Normans as he says. It is possible. My wife from Sicily is mt K1c1f of probable Norman descent and the Y of her family is R-L21 to investigate, but Maltese are above all from Sicilian and Calabrian descent.
I am mt K1a1b1e, close relative to the Ashkenazic K1a1b1a, I am a Tuscan from thousands of years and all the K1a1b1 subclades are European as I am saying from years and as Costa et al. demonstrated. This against all my banishments, and, as Carl Graham said above,: "Generally speaking I consider removal of alternative opinions to your own as a sign that your own position is weak and there is an inability to accept that".
Carl Graham " this is truly hilarious....dna bias!" Actually , considering the way people are it would be very surprising if there wasn't any.
Luba Tabolova Thank you, Gioiello Tognoni, on your input on this very interesting topic. I can see why it might be not liked by many. Honestly, it would not surprise me either, your theory, but let's the numbers to do their magic. May be with more available DNA and honest research, not politically correct, will give us some answers. At last.
Itzhak Epstein Stephen, What makes you think that Facebook group are democracies? What prevents you from establishing another hg G FB group or a hg G listserv elsewhere?
Helen Riding Ted is known for his strong opinions. I wouldn't take it personally.
Luba Tabolova Helen Riding, I agree. I know it from 23andMe, but still think he is an interesting person and can contribute a lot. Just hoping, no one would try to remove anyone just for simple disagreement on some facts. Hopefully it will never happen again.)
Gioiello Tognoni Luba, probably I was one of the first all over the world to say that STRs aren't reliable because they mutate backwards and forwards and it seemed to me that they tended to the modal in their mutations etc. Here I have compared just STRs, because I hadn't others, but I am the first to say that only a deep SNPs test like Big Y, Y Prime or Y Elite or the Full Genome (mine is processing in Hong Kong) could say something definitive.
As also you said above, we ask only to compare freely and with an open mind the data available. Unfortunately many do their tests in secret and don't put at disposal of everyone their results. The cause is due to what Carl Graham said: that not everyone does the test for knowing the truth but to confirm a prejudice that seems not having anything reliable by an historic, an archaeologic, a philological point of view.
Stephen Asciak Itzhak Epstein I have set up the Haplogroup G-M201 Open Discussipn Group page
Stephen Asciak Gioiello Tognoni I can trace my paternal line back to 13th century A knight of the Royal Courts of Hohenstaufen and Aragon
Stephen Asciak Gioiello my recorded paternal ancestor landed in Malta 1286 as Captain of the Sicilian army reclaiming Malta for house of Aragon.
Gioiello Tognoni Of course I have said that it is reliable: I probably found Norman descent in my wife from Sicily, not supposed by me. But by comparing more haplotypes and above all at the SNPs level, we'll be able to understand more. A Maltese like you, Hebeyer, probably influenced by a rich man who funds National Geographic for demonstrating that Phoenicians are in the Mediterranean yet, ceased writing me when I "demonstrated" him that his Arabic surname derived from a Sicilian converted to Islam and after migrated to Malta.
Stephen Asciak He was in the contigent with of Admiral Roger of Lauria of which both families downstream 2 generations married Lauria/Axac
Gioiello Tognoni Stephen, my wife's grandmother, dead 97 years old, was named Cachia and probably came from Malta, but the first Cachia came from Apulia during the 13th century...
Gioiello Tognoni Stephen, we are using DNA just for going beyond the common thinking: by paper trail all Jews descend from Abraham!
Stephen Asciak Gioiello, I am currently researching a number areas of historical documents 1) Hohenstaufen period of Sicily 12th 13th century 2) the Town of Sciacca in Sicily, which back in 13th century was known as Xach, Xech... and in Malta the paternal name was noted as A.Xac, A.Xach 3) House of Aragon 13th century as the the province of Catalan there is a village AJAC and it is also noted as AXAC as the J is pronounced as X.. 4) In House of Aragon records Axach is noted as 1st name for Isaac, Knights returning from the Crusades tooking Biblical names.. 5) Researching the exiles from Sicily and Sth Italy of the Court of Hohenstaufen and the Ghillibines around 1266 ad when Avignon took control of Sicily and Sth Italy from 1266 to 1283 of which Roger de Lauria was one and is one of my ancestral fathers off a maternal line married to an AXAC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_of_Lauria
Roger of Lauria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roger of Lauria (c. 1245 – 17 January 1305), was a...
Stephen Asciak My ancestral father Laurenzu, Lenzu Axac married descendent of the Hohenstaufen dynasty
Gioiello Tognoni These are all interesting researches, but I could say something about your Y. Of course I have been interested above all with my hg. (R-L23/Z2110*: my theory of the "Italian Refugium" of R1b1-L389* amongst other hgs., both Y anf Mt, is based upon this), but interested also on the rest. It seems to me that there is a close link between your halotype and the Jewish one. This should be explained, and it may be done by comparing haplotype and SNPs.
Of course for being sure that your theories are right, you should find some descendant of those noble families and test him. The other way is to find who are the closest haplotypes to you and this I may do.
Gioiello Tognoni From your words (Laurenzu/Lenzu) everything seems to bring you to the Sicilian world: name is Latin (Laurentius), the town is in Sicily (Sciacca: don't mind if the names are often of Arab origin: Arabs of Sicily were then above all Sicilians converted). My thinking (also because many Jewish lines derived, I think, from Southern Italians converted) is that probably your Y comes from Southern Italy, but all that has to be demonstrated with scientific method.
Gioiello Tognoni Interesting is the link (if it will be demonstrated at the SNP level) with Calabrian Iradu. This would demonstrate that Italy has close but different haplotypes what Jews, as always, haven't. But Iradu comes from Ieradu/Ierardu, which is the German name Gerardus, thus a German origin of all these haplotypes couldn't be excluded.
Gioiello Tognoni The closest link to you at 96 markers, even though very far, is the Basque Bolinaga, thus I think that there is no doubt that this hg belongs to the most ancient European hg. G (of course if all this will be demonstrated at the SNP level).
Stephen Asciak Based on current terminating SNPs and STR markers...it is Janky, Cano, Avona, Pardo, Ringling, Desjardins that you should look at... based on specific str markers... Ringling has only done 37 marker test and I would be interested to see his 67 STR results... ysearch is quite misleading... the party who placed the so called Ashkenazi basal has no basis for this insertion...it is a falsehood placed to support a biased groups claim.. i suggest you refer here for comparisons...http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-M ... =ydnacolor and for your interest the the Ashkenazi group is down stream from the group I am in...
Family Tree DNA - G-M406 Y-DNA Project
For genealogy within the most recent fifteen generations, STR markers help define paternal lineages. Y-DNA STR markers change (mutate) often enough that most men who share the same STR results are will also share a recent paternal lineage. This page displays Y-Chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) STR results for…
Gioiello Tognoni If the haplotype is this:
1.1111...G-PF3296+ PF3316+ DYS578=8 DYS455=11 DYS454=12 DYS388=12 DYS392=11 DYS459a=8
190808 Infinger G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-13 11 12 11 12 11 29 17 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 27 12-13-14-14 9 10 19-20 15 14 15 16 34-35 11 10
7407 Coats John Coats m Sally Wright - IN G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 28
N44784 Pontecorvo Samuele Pontecorvo b. 1750, m. Grazia Coen G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29
N30527 Teixeira G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29
N40178 Freire Mauro de carvalho Freire G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29
177705 Ringling RINGLING G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29 16 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12-13-14-14 9 10 19-20 14 14 15 19 33-37 11 10
N13525 Boni italia G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 30
E6405 Munaretti Breganze (Italy) G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 14 11 32
199805 Ruscica G-M201
14 22 15 10 13-15 11 12 11 12 11 29 17 8-9 11 12 23 15 22 29 11-13-14-14 10 10 19-20 15 14 17 18 34-38 11 10
N59508 Oddo G-M201
14 22 17 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 29
325859 Ambroselli G-M201
15 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 29 17 8-9 11 12 23 15 22 28 12-13-14-14 9 10 19-20 16 14 17 17 33-37 11 8
335747 Mancini G-M201
15 22 15 11 13-15 11 12 12 13 11 29
197054 Vetro G-M201
15 22 16 10 13-13 11 12 12 12 11 29 17 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12-13-14-14 9 10 19-20 16 14 16 17 34-38 11 8
I'd say that Italians are pretty all, comprised a great Jewish Italian family (Pontecorvo) and I think having demonstrated many times that Italian Jews are pretty all of genetic Italian descent.
Thus, as it' isn't believable that all Germans migrated to Italy and none remained in Germany, whereas Roman hg. G expanded in all the Empire, perhaps my first thinking that these haplotypes are of Italian descent perhaps wasn't so wrong. Anyway, as usual, I continue to study and to deepen the question.
Gioiello Tognoni Also your specific cluster seems well represented in Italy. Anyway only tests like Big Y or Y Prime etc will be able to say the last word about the origin and the diffusion of these haplotypes:
1.1111...G-PF3296+ PF3316+ DYS578=8 DYS455=11 DYS454=12 DY...Altro...
Stephen Asciak there is still alot more research to be done and deeper snp testing to validate which theory... Is it the Romans or is it the Germanic Tribes... the G-M406 mutation occuurred over 14000 years ago... is proximity location based on what we see statistically and based on historical expansions of peoples centres around the Balkans/Danube Valley
Gioiello Tognoni Here you can see why the Jewish haplotype is unique, recent and derived:
1.111111...G-PF3296+ PF3316+ DYS578=9 DYS455=11 DYS454=12 DYS388=12 DYS392=12 DYS459a=8 DYS537=12
338158 Rostas. M.D Imre Lemberger. B 1918 D ? G-PF3296 ...Altro...
Stephen Asciak Gioiello Tognoni the group above is just one example of many current Jewish clusters...not just of G but in other haplogroups... during the Roman Era... religon was a commodity... and it was knowledge that Romans took on the Jewish religon as did they with many other religious CULTS of the time...
Stephen Asciak Further... pre the 1st millenium BC their is NO Scientific Archeological HARD EVIDENCE to prove the existence of Jewish regional group (I respect all religious groups, but 1st most I respect the facts) as all records show pre 1st Millenium confirm the Cannanites as the regional group of the levant... after the fall of the Eastern Kingdoms of the Mediteranean we see the creation of new regional groups in the levant and we still do not have a definite answer on the migrations and origins of the Seas Peoples who settled in the Levant, Anatolia and Egypt
Gioiello Tognoni Of course I asked myself about the origin of this person (Viri) and why I said that the Jewish haplotype derived fom the Italian one (whichever its far origin were) and not the other way around. Of course not because a direct derivation were demonstrable, but because probably this Italian haplotype (seen that Italians are very scarcely tested) may be one of numerous ones present in Italy and probably also someone closer to the Jewish one.
The region where Viri comes from is the Southern-Eastern Latium, where Italic peoples lived (and this could be the origin) but where there were also known Jewish communities whose families bring the surnames from those towns (Alatri, Di Veroli, Supino etc,) even though the Viri's family came probably from the little town of Ripi southwards Frosinone.
Of course I put also to the attention of you all that Italian Jews, even those with believed Middle Eastern haplogroups like E, J etc. (and even more for the mt), probably come from Italian haplotypes and not Middle Eastern ones (see the cases I examined of Russo, Benveniste etc.)
Thus a scientific analysis has to take into account all the hypotheses and has to freely check all them.
Gioiello Tognoni I put at your attention also this haplotype, tested only for M201+ and P15+, but, if belonged to this cluster, would give a higher variance to Italy:
N23057 Diego Nicolo (b. 1889, Reggio di Calabria, Italy) G1a G-P20 M201+, P15+
13 21 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 12 30 16 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12-13-13-13 9 10 19-20 15 14 16 19 35-37 11 10 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 0 22-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 13 21 20 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 12
Gioiello Tognoni And also this haplotype doesn't match the Jewish one for having a RechLOH in DYS464 and DYS537=13 from 12:
201743 Skillestad G-P15
14 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 12 29 16 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 28 12-13-14-14-15-15 9 10 19-20 15 15 15 18 33-36 11 10 11 9 15-16 8 13 10 8 11 11 14 22-22 16 10 12 12 14 8 13 21 20 18 13 11 13 10 11 11 12
and could bring us to a wider European haplogroup.
This Turk is tested G-PF3296 and his haplotype is far related having DYS392=11 and not 12:
232967 Yetis Gökkerim (Yetis), Çatköy, Konya 1880's. Turkey G-PF3296
14 22 16 10 13-13 11 12 12 12 11 29 16 8-9 11 12 23 16 22 27 13-13-14-14 10 10 19-20 15 14 17 20 33-34 11 10
Gioiello Tognoni It would seem that Skillestad is the closest haplotype to the Jewish one, for having also DYS444=13 and DYS446=18. He differs also in DYS557=16 against the modal 15 of the Jewish cluster. The introgression could be happened also in Germany or the Italian and the German haplotypes to have a German origin, which is the question also about Asciak's haplotype.
Stephen Asciak Gioiello Tognoni this group 1.111111...G-PF3296+ PF3316+ DYS578=9 DYS455=11 DYS454=12 DYS388=12 DYS392=12 DYS459a=8 DYS537=12 is down the line is a split less than 1000 years
Stephen Asciak Key DYS392=12 and DYS537=12
Gioiello Tognoni I think this is true for the Jews, and it is always so: many Jewish haplotypes have a MRCA within 1000 years, for this I say that it is due to an introgression and they say that it is due to a bottleneck, but it is strange that no other haplotype survived amongst other Jews if the haplogroup was present in the Jewish pool before the diaspora. Anyway I think that this isn't worth for Skillestad and Viri. Viri has three rare mutations within 25 markers and we have had many surprises from tests like Big Y, even though there isn't an agreement about how to count a single SNPs, but similar values at the STRs level may be deceitful.
Anyway your cluster would need a wide SNPs test, which seems to me lacking, also from the data on the ISOGG tree.This I think is the most important work to do, if someone of your clade is willing to spend.

Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:45 am
Stephen Asciak I will looking to the Genome test shortly... as the G M406 group has more questions to be answered.

Gioiello Tognoni I think that these tests will answer all our questions, even though Big Y seems not completely reliable because gives different answers to different samples of the same cluster. I'll be able to say more when my Full Genome arrives next.
Seen that there is an Ortiz amongst these Jewish haplotypes it will be interesting also to test the possibility that the introgression happened in Iberia from a Visigoth ancestry.

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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:24 am

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:42 am
Gioiello, I am very much deep into my paper trail research of my paternal line...

Confirmed records take me to 1286ad with the landing on Malta of Catalan and Sicilian Troops in taking of the Island for the Crown of Aragon.

My research is now with the Court of Aragon/Barcelona Records and Court of Hohenstaufen Records....

The above comment regarding G2a3a being a Askenazi base is totally unfounded...

There is a group under PF3296 with specific str markers DYS392=12 not 11 (mutation rate 0.00265/377 yrs) , DYS607=15 not 14 (Mutation Rate 0.00411/243yrs), DYS578=9 not 8(Mutation Rate 0.00008)

Alone DYS578 shows a definite early split in this cluster , 12500 yrs this is a slow mutation..

so again I cannot find any justification in the data showing that G-M406 is Askenazi and the ysearch so called Askenazi modal has no basis to confirm this

I would like to see the data on this so called modal data

My own paper trail puts my own paternal line in FACT REALITY..not based on data numbers...

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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:24 am

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:06 am
Also note correction to your note

you wrote Stephen Asciak Key DYS392=12

I am actually DYS392=11 not 12

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