A polite version of my critic and something more from YFull

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:18 pm
A polite version of my critic and something more from YFull page of FB

Gioiello Tognoni I had the paper from Benassi and I thank him for that. Of course, after what I wrote here about his hg. and that was deleted, I don't agree with his idea that his hg. is from Near East, but, if he likes that, he is free to think what he likes. About the paper I'll read it more carefully next, but these are my first impressions I posted on "R1b-L51-PF7589" group at FB.
"Based on microsatellite variability, [51] south-western Europe (Iberian Peninsula/southern France) is a likely area of origin for this haplogroup and a starting point for the first colonization of Sardinia. However, the observation of chromosomes I2-M26 (xM26alfa, M26beta) and I2-M26alfa (I-Z27361) in Tuscany highlights a possible alternative route for the arrival of haplogroup I2-M26 in Sardinia: from Tuscany through the islands of Elba and Corsica".
In the recent paper on Roman aDNA there is a sample of G-L91 even older than Oetzi. Also an mt U5b3 old more than 9000 years that these authors on 2009 defined come to Sardinia from Southern France.
"It is of note that with the only exceptions of a I2-L160delta L (PF4421) Y chromosome in Calabria and a I2-L160delta A (Y20194) Y chromosome in Andalusia (easily explained as a recent Sardinian contribution), the I2-L160 sub-lines are virtually only observed in the island, supporting a Sardinian origin of I2-L160delta clades. This interpretation seems to be confirmed by the results obtained by the YFull Tree results [54]".
"Haplogroup R1b-V88 is a scarcely represented early branch of haplogroup R1b, mainly observed in sub-Saharan Africa. Its highest frequency is reported in Central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Sudan) where R1b-V88 sub-lineages underwent an expansion in Chadic-speaking groups [47,55,56]. Outside Africa, R1b-V88 lineages have been sporadically observed in the Middle East [57] and Europe, particularly in Sardinia [17,20,22,47,56,58]. Different hypotheses have been proposed concerning its ancestral homeland: a western Asian/middle eastern origin [47,59] and a sub-Saharan African origin [55] were hypothesized to explain its diffusion and variation in Africa, while no explanation was advanced for the presence of its sub-lineage R1b-M18 in Sardinia. The recent and detailed reconstruction of the phylogeny of this haplogroup [56] has revealed that the rare European R1b-V88 lineages (R1b-M18 and R1b-V35) originated from the root of the phylogeny much earlier (about 12.34 kya) than the separation of the African lineages (7.85 ± 0.90 kya), thus supporting an origin of R1b-V88 outside Africa and a subsequent diffusion in sub-Saharan Africa through the Last Green Sahara period during the Middle-Holocene [56]. Interestingly, recent studies on ancient DNA [60,61,62] identified the most ancient R1b-V88 samples (dated 11 and 9 ky) in East Europe (Serbia and Ukraine, respectively) and more recent R1b-V88 samples (dated 7 and 6 ky) in Spain (I0410) and Germany (I1593, I0559) thus supporting a European origin and opening new grounds for discussion concerning the routes towards Africa and Sardinia, where R1b-V88 characterizes a considerable number of ancient specimens [62,63]".
The oldest samples of R-V88* are in the British Isles and in Italy (Marchesi). The first who demonstrated against all on the STRs already more than ten years ago that R-V88 did comefrom Italy or at least from Europe has been Gioiello Tognoni, i.e. me.
"Interestingly, ancient R1b chromosomes have been described in Italy (Villabruna, dated 14 ky, [68]) and Iberia (dated 7 ky, [27])".
Ahahahah, to laugh: Villabruna on the same plane of a sample 7000 years younger and come to Iberia very likely from Italy with the Zilhao migration!
"On the other hand, haplogroup R1b-M269, common in the Iberian Peninsula since 4.5 kya, where it almost completely replaced the pre-existing haplogroups I2, G2 and R1b(xM269) [67] and is frequent (21.3%) in modern samples from North Sardinia, was observed in ancient DNAs from Punic and Medieval sites".
Ahahahah. R1b in Punic sites! Leftists: the leopard cannot change his spots!, and they didn't get the Florence labs for aDNA to test old women bones from Sahara! Ahahah
Joachim Koch After you seem rather into this: I know Villabruna1´s R1b-L754 is placed ancestral to most R1bs including M269. Do you know if Villabruna1 as an individual *may* have been ancestral to M269, i. e. do you know if Villabruna1 had any "extras" that would exclude being ancestral to M269? (I´m not sure every found SNP (don´t know if also *stable* STRs make any sense in this early stage) is included in hg definition.)
Joachim Koch This is of no importance, so just for fun: Beside having a deep subclade of R-M269 (FGC23887) like some 100 Million other people I do "also" happen to have Villabruna1´s mt U5b2b.
Gioiello Tognoni Joachim Koch, the true question is that for these levantinists (and become kurganists later) there shouldn't have been R1b in Europe before supposed migrations from Near East etc. But they found by chance Villabruna (14000 ya) and later Les Iboussiéres (12000 ya), and they stopped testing Italy and nearby. R-V88 should have come from Near East, and I was banned from all the fora they controlled for having demonstrated that it was from Italy or at leats form Europe. The question isn't if Villabruna is our ancestor, but that there was a tribe of R1b there, in Italy, from which all the R1b1 descend, and that was what should be hidden.

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