My first surname match

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:06 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gio
There are some posts about RISE550 on other forums. In Sergey's tree he shows RISE550 with two chromosome positions, 15080170 C/T and 18945942 C/T. One is BY3719 and the other is BY3718. BY3719 is in Z2103. Some posters are getting excited about the status of RISE550 and are trying to link it with L51 with one read for PF6535.


So far the only one survived person R-PF6535* is an Italian:
MK38358
Liberatore Zinno, 1580, Gessopalena, Roccascalegna
Italy
R-PF6535 13 24 14 10 11-15 13 12 11 13 13 30
 

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:42 pm
Don't mind about this moron:
-------------------------------
Quote Originally Posted by Garimund View Post
I’d be interested to hear what he tells you in regards to this sample, whether the likelihood of this being confirmed is far-fetched or not.
Well, here you go! I got an answer from the Reich Lab, specifically from Iosif Lazaridis himself.
It turns out RISE550 has been called R1b-L51 not based on L617 but on PF6535, which is coincident with L51.
I guess it's okay to quote Dr. Lazaridis:
Quote Originally Posted by Iosif Lazaridis
The call is based on one derived read for R-L51+: PF6535(5465148G>A:A) which is at the 4th base from the end of the read.
I estimate an overall rate of ~1% for this deamination in all our data, but of course whether this happens is sample-specific and read position-specific.
So, at present I classify this as an intriguing possibility but not as a clear-cut case of finding R-L51 in Yamnaya which of course would be monumental.
Not bad news. Wish it were better, but it's not bad. RISE550 is derived, after all, for PF6535.
-----------------------------
These are the reliable SNPs:
https://amtdb.org/records/RISE550
R1:CTS2680:14424045C->T, R:CTS3622:15078469C->G, R1:P286:17716251C->T, R:CTS2426:14300457G->A, R:F82:7548900G->A, R1:CTS997:7132713G->A, R:CTS7876:17722802G->A, R1b1:L1349:22722580T->C, R1b1a1a:CTS3876:15239181G->C, R1b1a1a:CTS7904:17732408T->C, R1b1a:PF6271:23984056G->A, R1b1a1a:CTS9018:18617596C->T, R1b1a1a:PF6418:6766034C->T, R1b1a:CTS4764:15803415G->A, R:CTS11075:22934109A->G, R1b1a1a2:CTS8591:18095336A->C, R1b1a1a2:L773:7220727A->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6494:20811307G->A, R1b1a1a2:CTS8728:18167403C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6399:2668456C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6430:8070532T->A, R1b1a1a2:PF6434:8411202A->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6438:9464078C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6497:21222868C->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6500:21410840G->T, R1b1a1a:PF6498:21312064C->A, R1b1a:CTS3063:14637352T->C, R1b1a1a2:M520:4446430T->A, R1b1a1a:PF6506:21801722G->A, R1b1a1:L388:17400785G->A, R1b1:PF6270:23845409T->C
and even though PF6535 were actually positive it doesn't mean anything. 4300 years ago but this subclade formed between 6100 and 5700 years ago (as to YFull), so it had about 1500 years for migrating from Italy or Western Europe to Russia.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:54 pm
Gioiello wrote:Don't mind about this moron:
-------------------------------
Quote Originally Posted by Garimund View Post
I’d be interested to hear what he tells you in regards to this sample, whether the likelihood of this being confirmed is far-fetched or not.
Well, here you go! I got an answer from the Reich Lab, specifically from Iosif Lazaridis himself.
It turns out RISE550 has been called R1b-L51 not based on L617 but on PF6535, which is coincident with L51.
I guess it's okay to quote Dr. Lazaridis:
Quote Originally Posted by Iosif Lazaridis
The call is based on one derived read for R-L51+: PF6535(5465148G>A:A) which is at the 4th base from the end of the read.
I estimate an overall rate of ~1% for this deamination in all our data, but of course whether this happens is sample-specific and read position-specific.
So, at present I classify this as an intriguing possibility but not as a clear-cut case of finding R-L51 in Yamnaya which of course would be monumental.
Not bad news. Wish it were better, but it's not bad. RISE550 is derived, after all, for PF6535.
-----------------------------
These are the reliable SNPs:
https://amtdb.org/records/RISE550
R1:CTS2680:14424045C->T, R:CTS3622:15078469C->G, R1:P286:17716251C->T, R:CTS2426:14300457G->A, R:F82:7548900G->A, R1:CTS997:7132713G->A, R:CTS7876:17722802G->A, R1b1:L1349:22722580T->C, R1b1a1a:CTS3876:15239181G->C, R1b1a1a:CTS7904:17732408T->C, R1b1a:PF6271:23984056G->A, R1b1a1a:CTS9018:18617596C->T, R1b1a1a:PF6418:6766034C->T, R1b1a:CTS4764:15803415G->A, R:CTS11075:22934109A->G, R1b1a1a2:CTS8591:18095336A->C, R1b1a1a2:L773:7220727A->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6494:20811307G->A, R1b1a1a2:CTS8728:18167403C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6399:2668456C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6430:8070532T->A, R1b1a1a2:PF6434:8411202A->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6438:9464078C->T, R1b1a1a2:PF6497:21222868C->G, R1b1a1a2:PF6500:21410840G->T, R1b1a1a:PF6498:21312064C->A, R1b1a:CTS3063:14637352T->C, R1b1a1a2:M520:4446430T->A, R1b1a1a:PF6506:21801722G->A, R1b1a1:L388:17400785G->A, R1b1:PF6270:23845409T->C
and even though PF6535 were actually positive it doesn't mean anything. 4300 years ago but this subclade formed between 6100 and 5700 years ago (as to YFull), so it had about 1500 years for migrating from Italy or Western Europe to Russia.


Gio
If you look at post #542 in the thread at anthrogenica, "L51 into Europe west etc." there is a copy of a Y-tree which Sergey created. You will see RISE550 and Sergey has two SNP numbers beside the sample. Those positions had to be in Hg 19 in 2015. I looked them up at Yfull and there are SNPs linked to those positions. One is in the FTDNA tree, BY3719 under Z2103. The Other SNP is BY3718/FT281826 but I can't find it in the FTDNA tree!!

BY3719 has 66 SNPs (66*83=5,478) with three testers, one England, one Saudi Arabia and one unknown.

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:20 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gio
If you look at post #542 in the thread at anthrogenica, "L51 into Europe west etc." there is a copy of a Y-tree which Sergey created. You will see RISE550 and Sergey has two SNP numbers beside the sample. Those positions had to be in Hg 19 in 2015. I looked them up at Yfull and there are SNPs linked to those positions. One is in the FTDNA tree, BY3719 under Z2103. The Other SNP is BY3718/FT281826 but I can't find it in the FTDNA tree!!

BY3719 has 66 SNPs (66*83=5,478) with three testers, one England, one Saudi Arabia and one unknown.


Dartraighe, I know very well that tree. Till 2013 (or 2014), when I was banned from Anthrogenica, I knew very well Sergey Malyshev (smal), we exchanged many letters and he came frequently also here to reply my letters. I extimed him more than all the others linked to him in the FTDNA project. Anthrogenica dedicated to me a thread (Rathna's assessment of genetic material), always there and read from more than 110000 times. All what I wrote also after 2015 took into account also that tree, and we have got now some better ones as the YFull tree and the Big y block tree. My theories go beyond them. If Lazaridis is actually Dienekes Pontikos, I know him very well too: I wrote hundreds of letters in his blog, and he understood a little in the STRs, interested above all to the autosome. Only a moron like your "friend" may take into account his hypothesis, which wouldn't demonstrate anything as the possible R-L52* in central Asia which I spoke a lot about.

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:36 pm
15080170 C>T
18945942 C>T
BY3718 hg19: 15080170 hg38: 12968260 C>T
BY3719 hg19: 18945942 hg38: 16834062 C>T
12968260,16834062
YF09887 R-BY3719 C>T
In fact this is a subclade derived from Yamnaya and present in central Asia because it entered the Turkish pool with the migration of Indo-Europeans, nothing to do with the samples of Western Europe. Also about that I spoke a lot.

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:48 pm
That there are in the YFull tree two samples, one in the British Isles and the other in Saudi Arabia separated 4700 years ago may be just a demonstration of my theory, i.e. that two samples of R-Z2103 lived in Yamnaya but also Westernmost. Of course a migration from Yamnaya or eastern Europe to west is also possible, but my theory thinks having demonstrated that the few samples in eastern Europe derived from West. It is demonstrated from the YFull tree about R-M73 much older than R-M73-M478 of Asia and eastern Europe, and it will be demonstrated also for all the other subclades as to what I am writing from more than ten years, and demonstrating with a lot of samples.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY3719/

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:06 am
Gioiello wrote:That there are in the YFull tree two samples, one in the British Isles and the other in Saudi Arabia separated 4700 years ago may be just a demonstration of my theory, i.e. that two samples of R-Z2103 lived in Yamnaya but also Westernmost. Of course a migration from Yamnaya or eastern Europe to west is also possible, but my theory thinks having demonstrated that the few samples in eastern Europe derived from West. It is demonstrated from the YFull tree about R-M73 much older than R-M73-M478 of Asia and eastern Europe, and it will be demonstrated also for all the other subclades as to what I am writing from more than ten years, and demonstrating with a lot of samples.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY3719/


Gio
you need to look at the FTDNA block tree for the BY3719 samples to get a better understanding of their small group.


This RISE550 sample was from Peshany V. How many modern samples are there within 50 mile radius of where he was found? I think that it is fair to say if there are none to be found then he belonged to an extinct line. We know from our own YDNA branch lines how it works.

How many Z2103 derived branches are there between the birth of Z2103, 6,000 ybp and 5,000 ybp? And how many of these branches were found within the Yamnaya samples? The answer to this question will show you that Z2103 did not originate in the Yamnaya culture.
https://ancientdnahub.com/story_10123.html

"The site of Peshany V is in the town of Remontnoye, fifty-seven kilometers (thirty-five miles) northwest of the city of Elista. The individuals in this study were carbon dated to between 4,622 and 5,334 years old."

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:07 am
dartraighe wrote:Gio
you need to look at the FTDNA block tree for the BY3719 samples to get a better understanding of their small group.


This RISE550 sample was from Peshany V. How many modern samples are there within 50 mile radius of where he was found? I think that it is fair to say if there are none to be found then he belonged to an extinct line. We know from our own YDNA branch lines how it works.

How many Z2103 derived branches are there between the birth of Z2103, 6,000 ybp and 5,000 ybp? And how many of these branches were found within the Yamnaya samples? The answer to this question will show you that Z2103 did not originate in the Yamnaya culture.
https://ancientdnahub.com/story_10123.html

"The site of Peshany V is in the town of Remontnoye, fifty-seven kilometers (thirty-five miles) northwest of the city of Elista. The individuals in this study were carbon dated to between 4,622 and 5,334 years old."


"The people of the Samara Culture lived in permanent dwellings and herded cattle. Remains of pottery found at archaeological sites and specific type of burial practices indicated that the culture began around 7,300 years ago, and these people may have arrived into the Pontic Steppe region from the west in a region around the northern edge of the Black Sea. The Samara appear to have had trading links with Balkan peoples, evidence by the use of imported metal objects that are of Balkan origin".
Of course I don't agree that hg. H was born in Middle East: "Three of the individuals in this sample belonged to the mitochondrial haplogroup H, which is commonly found in Europe today and is known to have Middle Eastern origins. It has been found in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and existed in Europe prior to the arrival of agriculture".
That Y hg. R1b did come from the Cantabrian Refugium is another not demonstrated prejudice, not being the oldest samples found there but in Italy (Villabruna 14000 ya) and at the border Italy/France (Les Iboussiéres 12000 ya): "Although there were three males in this sample, Y-chromosomal haplogroup data could only be obtained for two of them. Both of these individuals belonged to the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b, which is probably from the Franco-Cantabrian region".

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:42 am
That the 3 samples from Great Britain are recent doesn't demonstrate anything about their origin, just because they are 3. Of course they may have come to Britain and Western Europe recently, but they may be old in Western Europe just at the time of the first separation after BY3719. The sample in Arabia R-BY3719* doesn't demonstrate that it is in Arabia from old times, but it may have come from everywhere in the meanwhile both from Southern Russia or from the migration to central Asia and the coming back with Turks or Mongols, thus we need other samples linked to it. The sample R-B8 is of an unknown country. Anyway we know that all this subclade R-M12149 is above all from Yamnaya>central Asia>back migration to Near East in the ways I said above, but we have also an old sample in Italy: YF07907, separated 4700 years ago as all the others... The great subclades R-L584 and R-Y4364 derived above all from two survived samples from Yamnaya, but I have always a subclade in Italy (that I manage) with no demonstrated link so far with Yamnaya but may have been in Italy or the Balkans from the origin: R-BY41455. This SNP, recognized from Alex Williamson, was admitted at YFull after many letters of mine. About R-Z2108 and my R-Z2110 I spoke a lot about not counting R-L51-PF7589 which are at the centre of all my analyses.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:44 am
Gio
You do not understand what I am saying. How many descendants did RISE550 produce in the region that he was found? I will tell you, zero, okay.

We know from modern dna that Mr P312 produced millions of descendants in west Europe.. That is the reason that we can say for certain that P312 was born in and expanded in western Europe.

And you cannot say that RISE550 was the ancestor of the English BY3719> FT134593. The English tester has 65 SNPs that no one else has!! Perhaps in the future testers will come along who will break down his 65 SNP block but there is no proof that his ancestor came from Peshany V!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!His ancestor could be from the Balkans.

I2181, Mathieson et al. Nature (2018), Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier from Smyadovo (4550-4455 calBC) is R1b-M269(xZ2103), but no calls for other branches.
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