Big Y700

Any discussions regarding y-DNA markers, results or questions.

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:23 am
dartraighe wrote:Gio
Do not speak about U106 when you do not know what you are talking about. You can speak about language on a language forum but this is a dna forum. And you need to stop looking at the limited info that is at Yfull. A lot of experts know that one R1b man (Mr L11)did not carry the IE into western Europe and that is a fact. It is only the really stupid people who associate any single YDNA group with one specific culture and language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

All Germanic languages are thought to be descended from a hypothetical Proto-Germanic, united by subjection to the sound shifts of Grimm's law and Verner's law. These probably took place during the Pre-Roman Iron Age of Northern Europe from c. 500 BC. Proto-Germanic itself was likely spoken after c. 500 BC,[32] and Proto-Norse from the 2nd century AD and later is still quite close to reconstructed Proto-Germanic, but other common innovations separating Germanic from Proto-Indo-European suggest a common history of pre-Proto-Germanic speakers throughout the Nordic Bronze Age.


Also in this "theory" German is 2500 years old [Proto-Germanic itself was likely spoken after c. 500 BC] and not 1500 [The German language is only 1,500 years old not 4,000 ybp] but of course the German branch of Indo-European is much older. All the time for being your ancestors German speaking.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:44 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gio
Do not speak about U106 when you do not know what you are talking about. You can speak about language on a language forum but this is a dna forum. And you need to stop looking at the limited info that is at Yfull. A lot of experts know that one R1b man (Mr L11)did not carry the IE into western Europe and that is a fact. It is only the really stupid people who associate any single YDNA group with one specific culture and language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

All Germanic languages are thought to be descended from a hypothetical Proto-Germanic, united by subjection to the sound shifts of Grimm's law and Verner's law. These probably took place during the Pre-Roman Iron Age of Northern Europe from c. 500 BC. Proto-Germanic itself was likely spoken after c. 500 BC,[32] and Proto-Norse from the 2nd century AD and later is still quite close to reconstructed Proto-Germanic, but other common innovations separating Germanic from Proto-Indo-European suggest a common history of pre-Proto-Germanic speakers throughout the Nordic Bronze Age.


Also in this "theory" German is 2500 years old [Proto-Germanic itself was likely spoken after c. 500 BC] and not 1500 [The German language is only 1,500 years old not 4,000 ybp] but of course the German branch of Indo-European is much older. All the time for being your ancestors German speaking.


You looked at Yfull and seen that the Welsh branch has a TMRCA of 1,800 ybp, which was during the Roman era , so you though that the branch was brought in by the Romans, really scientific stuff . Yfull's estimate for the Welsh branch is not correct and you do not know if the Welsh branch is derived from the Irish branch but you still think in the terms that all R1b branches move from east to west like some posters on other forums.


I don't have a problem with my ancestral branch coming from Germany but I see that you have a really small mindset when it comes to R1b and its branches. And what about your ancestral branch, Yamnaya_Samara ?

Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:30 am
dartraighe wrote:I don't have a problem with my ancestral branch coming from Germany but I see that you have a really small mindset when it comes to R1b and its branches. And what about your ancestral branch, Yamnaya_Samara ?


In fact, even though my haplogroup R-Z2110 is overwhelmingly Italian, I have no definitive proof that its origin is in Italy, and above all about my subclade FGC24408>SK2097 and the Italian FGC24444 I have always leave open the possibility that it did come to Italy with Etruscans for instance from Aegean Sea>Central Europe>Italy, even though I had many to say also to YFull about my 9bp deletion which seems to link me upstream the Caucasian samples SK2097.
Anyway Italian samples (Cinque, Maddamma/Madama, me) are in Italy at least from 2900 years, what you cannot say about your haplogroup in the Isles. But read all what I wrote about my sister clade downstream FGC24408, i.e. CTS699, very likely already present in Western Balkans 4700 years ago in aDNA, but we don't know if Italy did come from Balkans or the other way around. aDNA from Italy will say more, but these Harvardian scholars don't publish them yet...

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:31 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I don't have a problem with my ancestral branch coming from Germany but I see that you have a really small mindset when it comes to R1b and its branches. And what about your ancestral branch, Yamnaya_Samara ?


In fact, even though my haplogroup R-Z2110 is overwhelmingly Italian, I have no definitive proof that its origin is in Italy, and above all about my subclade FGC24408>SK2097 and the Italian FGC24444 I have always leave open the possibility that it did come to Italy with Etruscans for instance from Aegean Sea>Central Europe>Italy, even though I had many to say also to YFull about my 9bp deletion which seems to link me upstream the Caucasian samples SK2097.
Anyway Italian samples (Cinque, Maddamma/Madama, me) are in Italy at least from 2900 years, what you cannot say about your haplogroup in the Isles. But read all what I wrote about my sister clade downstream FGC24408, i.e. CTS699, very likely already present in Western Balkans 4700 years ago in aDNA, but we don't know if Italy did come from Balkans or the other way around. aDNA from Italy will say more, but these Harvardian scholars don't publish them yet...



You cannot say anything definitive about your ancestral line being in Italy no more than I can say when my branch entered Ireland. You need to stop looking at Yfull for answers because you will not find them. Even if they found one ancient dna sample that belongs to your FGC24444 branch in Italy it is not proof that your specific y- line was born in Italy and lived there for thousands of years. We are all in the same boat.

And you are wrong about my ydna group because you still are looking at the small number of samples at Yfull and their incorrect TMRCA's. And you should stick to what you are good at , language , because it definitely is not YDNA as you have shown in your recent posts.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:04 pm
I have 45 YSNPs downstream of Z156 and Z156 is estimated to be around 4,500 YBP. So the average years per YSNP for my Y-line is 100 years per YSNP. 28 YSNPs have occurred in my Y line since my Y line diverged from the Welsh cluster that I know about. That should be around 2,800 years and not 1,800 that Yfull has estimated.

There were no S5520 samples found among the Vikings, so it is possible that any S5520 found in Scandinavia today is from the post Viking Era. And no S5520 was found in any ancient German dna samples yet. Most of the S5520 testers in the FTDNA database come from Ireland and Scotland.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:35 pm
FTDNA shows more YSNP variants from my Y-700 test than YFull. I think that FTDNA did too good a job when they scrubbed my .BAM file before I sent it to Yfull. And I have 780 YSTR results at FTDNA and here are the results from the Yfull analysis of my Y-700 BAM.
STRs (all):
780

Reliable alleles:
636 (81.54%)

Uncertain alleles:
39 (5.00%)

N/A:
105 (13.46%)

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:26 pm
dartraighe wrote:I have 45 YSNPs downstream of Z156 and Z156 is estimated to be around 4,500 YBP. So the average years per YSNP for my Y-line is 100 years per YSNP. 28 YSNPs have occurred in my Y line since my Y line diverged from the Welsh cluster that I know about. That should be around 2,800 years and not 1,800 that Yfull has estimated.

There were no S5520 samples found among the Vikings, so it is possible that any S5520 found in Scandinavia today is from the post Viking Era. And no S5520 was found in any ancient German dna samples yet. Most of the S5520 testers in the FTDNA database come from Ireland and Scotland.


I have 22 YSNPs in my line that have not yet been found in another sample outside my family and I split from another Irish origin tester 22 YSNPs ago and we both split from the Welsh cluster 28 YSNPs ago. I would like to see some ancient dna samples from Ireland, Britain and the continent between 3,000 and 2,000 years ago.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:26 pm
I think that most posters are getting a result for 40-50 quality YSNPs from their Big Y tests Those YSNPs are downstream from their terminal Bronze Age estimated branches. The testers who receive between 20 and 30 YSNPs have not had a good test and are, in my view, missing YSNPs. Yfull uses the number of YSNPs divided by the number of testers to estimate the TMRCA's of individual branches which is not the correct approach. FTDNA's TMRCA's are much better. Some testers need to look at improving the quality of their tests by providing good quality samples!

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:47 am
I have 47 YSNPs downstream of Z156 from my Y-500 and Y-700 tests. That is around one YSNP on average per four generations at 25 YPG regardless of how many descendants there were in my Y line. That is me finished with YDNA tests. There is nothing more I can do except wait for some matches. Y fulls dates for the main branches may be okay in line with ancient dna results but they cannot be right with the individual branch TMRCA's.

There is no doubt that there was a Bronze Age expansion of R1b within western/central Europe, but that is all. There is no evidence of an R1b-L11 expansion in the Steppe. The scientists should admit that they were wrong and that they made a mistake. Autosomal dna is not evidence of a YDNA expansion. There were no first farmer YDNA branches found in Ireland in Neolithic graves but Irish people are said to have 30>40% farmer autosomal dna.

Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:08 am
dartraighe wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I have 45 YSNPs downstream of Z156 and Z156 is estimated to be around 4,500 YBP. So the average years per YSNP for my Y-line is 100 years per YSNP. 28 YSNPs have occurred in my Y line since my Y line diverged from the Welsh cluster that I know about. That should be around 2,800 years and not 1,800 that Yfull has estimated.

There were no S5520 samples found among the Vikings, so it is possible that any S5520 found in Scandinavia today is from the post Viking Era. And no S5520 was found in any ancient German dna samples yet. Most of the S5520 testers in the FTDNA database come from Ireland and Scotland.


I have 22 YSNPs in my line that have not yet been found in another sample outside my family and I split from another Irish origin tester 22 YSNPs ago and we both split from the Welsh cluster 28 YSNPs ago. I would like to see some ancient dna samples from Ireland, Britain and the continent between 3,000 and 2,000 years ago.




I examined the FGC named YSNPs in my home page and have found seven that I am derived for not ancestral. These YSNPs are in ybrowse but they are not in the Y-tree at Yfull nor FTDNA's tree. I cannot find any other info on the internet about them so they must be specific to my Y-line!
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