Did the Celts occupy Ireland


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:32 pm
An enthralled audience which filled the Parade Tower to capacity heard four of Irelands leading Celtic scholars defend and attack the motion ‘The Celts - did they occupy Ireland’. The enthralling debate waxed first one way and then another before concluding with a resounding defeat for the motion.


http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local ... -1-3726999

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:52 pm
mull wrote:An enthralled audience which filled the Parade Tower to capacity heard four of Irelands leading Celtic scholars defend and attack the motion ‘The Celts - did they occupy Ireland’. The enthralling debate waxed first one way and then another before concluding with a resounding defeat for the motion.


http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local ... -1-3726999


The question is though, what is a Celt? The archaelogist criteria was the presence of Hallstat and La Tene artificats. However many say that Urnfield which was a Bronze age culture was "proto-celtic". We know that Indo-European languages in the form of Myceanean Greek was in Greece during the Bronze age. Whose to say "Proto-Celtic" wasn't in Ireland as part of the "Atlantic Bronze Age"

Part of the traditional position among archaelogists is that there is continuity from earliest times. The problem with this obviously is the huge position of L21. If you go on some of the TMRCA results it's between 3,700-4,000 years old (2000-1700BC) and the results point to the continent as source location. Newgrange in comparison is 5,200 years old (3200BC), the implication been that majority of modern Irishmen carry a haplogroup that arrived in Ireland later leading to a disconnect on the male line.

Apart from linguistic evidence there are also obviously religious connections. Irish Lugh vs. Pan-Celtic Luggus, ritual, law/legal system etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:25 pm
"the total absence of finds of any artefacts of a nature which could be linked to the Celtic race"

Using terms like race doesn't help matters. Like Dubhthach says the issue is what is a celt; I suppose people may look at it from the point of view that the people at the time didn't consider themselves celtic and that the term was really only applied to Ireland form a few hundred years ago as a linguistic label. I think the original meaning of the term has been corrupted down the years and in Ireland it's probably fair to say it was heavily entwined with nationalism.
I wonder if some of the reasons to say Irish people are not celtic now is down to trying to somehow make Irish people out to be unique.
The opponents of the celtic label didn't offer any alternative (according to the article anyway).
Also O'Keefe (going by the article) seems to be focusing more on the Iron Age.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:10 pm
In this argument there are two defintions of what CELTIC means. One is linguistic the other archaelogical.

Linguistically Irish is a Celtic language this obviously when you compare it with continental Celtic languages such as Gaulish, Leptonic, Celtiberian etc

The archaelogists regard the word Celtic as defining a specific material culture specifically Hallstat/La Tene. They imply thus that the Celts are an Iron age "civilisation", of course the question is where were their ancestors during the Bronze age? After all when the archaelogists were excavating in Greece they didn't regard the Bronze age culture as been Greek until they decyphered Linear B which was in "Mycenaean Greek" (Q-Greek, compared to ancient greek which could be called "P-Greek" ;) )
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Ok, now O'Keefe also said that there was no Hallstatt items found. I was under the impression that it was la tene items that were more scarce. And he also seemed to completely write off someones idea behind linguistics.
I remember there was a tv show on Channel 4 about 7 or 8 years ago that touched on soemthing like this, it went way over my head so I can't comment too much on it. It's a pity I can't remember the name of it as I'm sure it may be on youtube.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:17 am
OK, who are these heretics? Do bears live in the woods? Of course the Celts occupied Ireland, and Wales, and Scotland and, increasingly it is being revealed, a number of other places. I have seen no valid argument to the contrary, and all over the world there are millions of people who will shout a resounding, "YES". :evil:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:37 pm
Ian B wrote: OK, who are these heretics? Do bears live in the woods? Of course the Celts occupied Ireland, and Wales, and Scotland and, increasingly it is being revealed, a number of other places. I have seen no valid argument to the contrary, and all over the world there are millions of people who will shout a resounding, "YES". :evil:


I think this points to a problem defining what the question is. What I understand is that they are asking whether Celts came to Ireland from elsewhere?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:39 pm
Well the evidence to date indicates that the Celts did in fact move from continental Europe, over which they exercised quite an influence at one stage. The map below indicates the migratory routes taken.
The Celts Movement.jpg


On this and other fora there have been many pages of discussion regarding the Celtic Migration to, and habitation of Ireland.
viewforum.php?f=3

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