R1a-Z93* from Italy

Possible time of origin: Less than 18,500 YBP
Possible place of origin: Eurasia, most probably South Asia, or Central Eurasia.
Defining mutations: M420 (also includes M17, M198, SRY1532.2 and SRY10831.2)
Highest frequencies: Scandinavia, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, South Asia and Siberia. (See List of R1a frequency by population)

Moderator: Semargl


Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:24 am
This Sardinian sample is in the YFull data from Francalacci 2013 as
ERS256938 966 958 R-Z93 R-KMS149 R-YP1506 Z2479/M746/S4582/V3664
but he is negative for KMS149 and YP1506, in fact in your tree is put at the beginning of the R1a-Z93 subclade. It is given as formed 5000 years before present and the subclades separated 4700 years ago.
Now another Italian American, a friend of mine, is in the tree
id:YF07986ITA [IT-SA]
under R1a-Z93*.
As in the FTDNA projects they are ready to say that he matches some people from England of supposed Alan origin (Italy is always thought from many people as a "sink" and many know my post "Sink Italy" that anyone may read on http://www.eng.molgen.org), and of course an Alan or other origin of these Italian samples may not be excluded, I ask you if you have elements for justifying that.

Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:06 am
Marco Grassi: Castellini è R1a Z93 YP1451+. Cosa ne pensi?
Beh, è una della subcladi di R-Z93, ma questa ha una espansione di 3300 anni fa, quindi la migrazione può essere diversa dagli altri due casi. L'origine è sempre quella di R1a, cioè ora sembra sempre più dai Balcani o Europa Centrale più che da più Est. Questa subclade è posteriore alla migrazione verso l'Asia centrale e poi verso l'India, quindi bisogna pensare a una migrazione di area ormai pienamente indoeuropea. Vedremo.
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Davidski has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
@All
Preliminary G25 coords for Pocrovca3 from the recent Immel et al. paper...
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Moldova_En:Pocrovca3_scaled,0.121791,0.155376,0.023381,-0.033592,0.04924,-0.024263,0.000705,-0.000692,0.029656,0.055946,0.004709,0.010641,-0.024232,-0.002615,-0.019408,-0.00769,0.017211,0.007221,0.005782,-0.002126,-0.000998,0.004204,-0.004807,-0.014942,0.002036
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Moldova_En:Pocrovca3,0.0107,0.0153,0.0062,-0.0104,0.016,-0.0087,0.0003,-0.0003,0.0145,0.0307,0.0029,0.0071,-0.0163,-0.0019,-0.0143,-0.0058,0.0132,0.0057,0.0046,-0.0017,-0.0008,0.0034,-0.0039,-0.0124,0.0017
Target: Moldova_En:Pocrovca3_scaled
Distance: 2.1770% / 0.02176982
87.2 ROU_C
9.6 RUS_Progress_En
3.2 UKR_N
Samuel Andrews has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
13% Steppe admix! I guess he means there might not have been a Steppe invasion of Europe, just gradual intermixing overtime. It's frustrating when authors in these DNA papers say baseless things like that just so they can make their papers interesting.
Vladimir has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
@Davidski
what is ROU_C? It's from Cucuteni?
Davidski has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
@Vladimir
Romania_C I4088
Romania_C I4088
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/downloada ... t-dna-data
Vladimir has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
@Davidski The Bodrogkeresztúr culture
• I4088 / URZI16
The sample included in the current study belongs to an adult individual discovered in grave no. 16 from 2003. The individual was deposited in crouched position on its left side, oriented East-to-West, and accompanied by six Bodrogkeresztúr pots as funeral inventory.88
• I4089 / URZI48
The sample included in the current study belongs to an adult individual discovered in grave no. 48 from 2014. The individual was also deposited in crouched position on its left side,30 oriented East-to-West, and accompanied by several Bodrogkeresztúr pots as funeral
inventory.

Posts: 3276
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:57 am
>13% Steppe admix! I guess he means there might not have been a Steppe invasion of Europe, just gradual intermixing overtime.<

There is no evidence for an R1b invasion from the Steppe and that is the most important part for all of us who are R1b. Some scientists are starting to wake up to this reality.

Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:29 pm
Davidski has left a new comment on the post "Ancient DNA vs Ex Oriente Lux":
Looks like Gioiello's still around despite the coronavirus storm in northern Italy.
Not saying that's a good or bad thing...


For us Romans the "corona" is the "corona lauri". Julius Caesar was better as an "imperator" but I am better as a "poeta" and also as the theorist of an "Italian refugium". You lost on both the fields.
P.S. Tuscany isn't in North Italy, but in Central one, and we have got the Apennines which save us from cold winds from your land and also from stupidity.

Posts: 3276
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:28 pm
From Eurogenes.

"Italy, 18,800BP, Paglicci71 U5b2b
Italy, 14,000BP, Villabruna, U5b2b1

There's one new U5b2b1a in Sicily dating 8,000 BC. 19,000BoP U5b2b1a may be the oldest WHG on record.

It is possible that Western U5b WHGs orginated in Italy.

Which, means WHG might be over 20,000 years old. One branch may have expanded out of Italy after the Ice age, and another branch expanded out of Southeast Europe after the Ice age."

One scientist said that WHG was 40,000 years old.

Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:27 pm
dartraighe wrote:From Eurogenes.

"Italy, 18,800BP, Paglicci71 U5b2b
Italy, 14,000BP, Villabruna, U5b2b1

There's one new U5b2b1a in Sicily dating 8,000 BC. 19,000BoP U5b2b1a may be the oldest WHG on record.

It is possible that Western U5b WHGs orginated in Italy.

Which, means WHG might be over 20,000 years old. One branch may have expanded out of Italy after the Ice age, and another branch expanded out of Southeast Europe after the Ice age."

One scientist said that WHG was 40,000 years old.


I posted this on the YFull page at FB:

It seems that this paper, of the same clan, found Paleolithic and Mesolithic in Sicily linked to Villabruna and from Neolithic links with Balkans, Greece, Northern Anatolia (the European linked one), and the link from Near East seems due to hg Y H*, thus it seesm that those people ended like the people introgressed in Italy during Roman Empire and gone extinct later. Also mt N* was already in Iberia. Of course mt U5b3 (that shy Italian geneticists exitated to say of Italian origin) was already rooted in Sicily. Of course I thank all these scholars, in spite of their intentions.

but worst in our Italian pages (and private) on FB.

Posts: 3276
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:From Eurogenes.

"Italy, 18,800BP, Paglicci71 U5b2b
Italy, 14,000BP, Villabruna, U5b2b1

There's one new U5b2b1a in Sicily dating 8,000 BC. 19,000BoP U5b2b1a may be the oldest WHG on record.

It is possible that Western U5b WHGs orginated in Italy.

Which, means WHG might be over 20,000 years old. One branch may have expanded out of Italy after the Ice age, and another branch expanded out of Southeast Europe after the Ice age."

One scientist said that WHG was 40,000 years old.


I posted this on the YFull page at FB:

It seems that this paper, of the same clan, found Paleolithic and Mesolithic in Sicily linked to Villabruna and from Neolithic links with Balkans, Greece, Northern Anatolia (the European linked one), and the link from Near East seems due to hg Y H*, thus it seesm that those people ended like the people introgressed in Italy during Roman Empire and gone extinct later. Also mt N* was already in Iberia. Of course mt U5b3 (that shy Italian geneticists exitated to say of Italian origin) was already rooted in Sicily. Of course I thank all these scholars, in spite of their intentions.

but worst in our Italian pages (and private) on FB.


This preprint shows that WHG is older than 26,000 years.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

"To address this imbalance and to better understand the relationship of Europeans and Near Easterners, we report genome-wide data from two ∼26 thousand year old individuals from Dzudzuana Cave in Georgia in the Caucasus from around the beginning of the LGM."


"Most of the Dzudzuana population’s ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the ‘Villabruna cluster’3"

Posts: 3209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:05 am
Blogger Gioiello said...
@"Bogdan has left a new comment on the post "The agricultural transition in Sicily (van de Loos...":
G-man, I know it pains you deeply, but without my horse riding, club wielding from western steppe forefathers blood, you simply do not exist.....Bring it down a notch and let’s discuss your passionate love to eat horse meat and where that originated..."

Why should that pain me? I am Gioiello Tognoni, R1b1a2-L23-Z2110-FGC24408-FGC24396-FGC24444 /K1a1b1e, and you? Only "Gift of Shit"? Haven't you got a surname and an Y an mt? My theories are due only to the data I have at my disposal. Why should I be against an origin from Yamnaya, from the chiftains from there, and certainly from a Noble Latin of 3000 years ago etc etc? But it seems that all the last data aren't in favour of the levantinists-kurganists-levantinists, said in another way the "Jewish, leftist and gay mafia of the aDNA"...

March 14, 2020 at 3:26 AM

Posts: 3276
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:21 am
More nonsense from another forum.
"U106 seems most likely to me to have been a relatively 'stay home' clan that didnt move much west from the Poland kind of area until pretty late in the CW era thought it could have been crossing the Baltic to parts of Scandinavia earlier. The sample for battle axe in Sweden for example is tiny - just a couple of men I believe."


If U106 was a "stay at home" clan then we know for sure that home was not in the Steppe. And I don't know where the Poland origin nonsense comes from. There is no evidence for a P312 or U106 origin in Poland. We are still waiting for the large number of L11 samples from the Steppe and we will still be waiting. If P312 and U106 were Neolithic origin haplogroups which Neolithic cultures did they belong to? Is the poster suggesting the CTC? The CTC is mostly descended from the LBK according to a new dna paper.

Posts: 3276
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:10 pm
One R1b-L151 in an Afanasievo site is proof of a massive invasion of P312 from the Steppe, LOL. That is the opinion of one Welsh idiot at anthrogenica.
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