R1a-Z93* from Italy

Possible time of origin: Less than 18,500 YBP
Possible place of origin: Eurasia, most probably South Asia, or Central Eurasia.
Defining mutations: M420 (also includes M17, M198, SRY1532.2 and SRY10831.2)
Highest frequencies: Scandinavia, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, South Asia and Siberia. (See List of R1a frequency by population)

Moderator: Semargl


Posts: 3177
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:42 pm
dartraighe wrote:One R1b-L151 in an Afanasievo site is proof of a massive invasion of P312 from the Steppe, LOL. That is the opinion of one Welsh idiot at anthrogenica.


I wrote about that to another idiot:

@Richard Stevens,
perhaps to read "Eurogenes blog" could be interesting to you too:
Blogger Archi said...
They clearly got something wrong with haplogroups. They use the ISOGG 2016, while they have R1b1a1a2a1a in the Afanasievo that gives the non-Afanasievo's L11/PF6539/S127, and Chemurchek has the R1b1a1a2a2 that gives the Afanasievo's Z2103.
Blogger Arza said...
Kovalev A.A. The Great Migration of the Chemurchek People from France to the Altai in the Early 3rd Millenium BCE
That's why I6222/SHT001 is:
SHT001 AT-26 Tooth - SHT001.B Early Bronze Age Afanasievo
SHT001.B0101; SHT001.B0102 M N1a1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a (R-P311)
March 26, 2020 at 7:08 AM
Blogger Archi said...
@Arza "That's why I6222/SHT001 is: SHT001 AT-26 Tooth SHT001.B0101; SHT001.B0102 M N1a1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a (R-P311)"
I6222 AT_26, Grave #2, MONU_26, Grave #2 Pinhasi, Ron; Cheronet, Olivia; Sirak, Kendra; Dashtseveg, Tumen petrous (CBD) 5067 3316-2918 calBCE (4415±31 BP, OxA-36222) Confident - The genetic analysis was done on a different individuals from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date (published in Wilkins et al. Nature Ecology and Evolution 2020). However, the 14C date matches to the Afanasievo period, and this individual clusters genetically with previously reported individuals from the Afansievo culture from the Altai region of Russia, providing confidence int he cultural assignment. Mongolia_Chalcolithic_1_Afanasievo Yes Bayankhongor aimag, Erdenetsogt sum, Shatar chuluu kurgan 2 Mongolia 46,4 100,82 1240K capture 1 0,136 146406 M R1b1a1a2a1a 25 R
Do you have sources?
March 26, 2020 at 7:38 AM
Blogger Archi said...
@Arza
Genetics does not confirm the hypothesis of Kovalev, Chemurchek people have nothing in common with France, if they still had R-P311, then this option could be.
March 26, 2020 at 9:57 AM
Blogger Arza said...
I6222 Y-DNA calls: https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ
March 26, 2020 at 10:12 AM

Derived till R-L52 like Paolo Amerighi from Siena, Italy, of a noble family, perhaps of German origin. Thus a partial R-L52, and this could explain the other sample appeared inthe YFull tree and deleted now, of a probable Arab from Iraq (you know that hg R isn't considered old among them) and could explain an origin from Mongols or Turks.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:00 pm
More nonsense.
"The Dutch Model for Beaker is correct, and Corded Ware will turn out to be the source of Beaker and of the steppe dna plus R1b-L51 in Europe west of the steppe."

It was not L51 that was found in the Bell Beakers sites because L51 was a Neolithic SNP. We all want to see the evidence of the massive R1b-P312 and U106 invasion from the Steppe. If they had it they would have published it and they would not keep raving about autosomal dna. Finding P312 in any early CWC sites in Northern Europe is not proof of a birth in any part of the Steppe.

The R1b-L151/L52 in Afanasievo had to be a dead Y line due to the fact that there are no surviving descendant branches in that region today.

Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:36 pm

YDNA:
R1b
MtDNA:
U5
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:00 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:One R1b-L151 in an Afanasievo site is proof of a massive invasion of P312 from the Steppe, LOL. That is the opinion of one Welsh idiot at anthrogenica.


I wrote about that to another.......


Haven't been around for 2 years, stopping by to say hi :D
What ever happened to the genetic Italian poster?
http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

Posts: 3177
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:58 am
silesian wrote:
dartraighe wrote:One R1b-L151 in an Afanasievo site is proof of a massive invasion of P312 from the Steppe, LOL. That is the opinion of one Welsh idiot at anthrogenica.


I wrote about that to another.......


Haven't been around for 2 years, stopping by to say hi :D
What ever happened to the genetic Italian poster?
http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png[/quote]

Silesian, if you are thinking to Vincent Vizachero, you know that many years ago he was perhaps the worst oppositor of my theories. We exchanged many letters, but at some point, for reasons of work, he was more and more engaged in his work and abandoned to write on the blogs. As he was working in the fields of "plants" I wrote ironically that he came back to his plants... After him many others became my oppositors, beginning strangely from Italians or Italo-something, like Richard "The moron" Rocca, but also Richard Stevens and of course all the Jews in some way I think funded from the firms (practically one) sponsored and linked to the Zionist agenda. You may find many of them on "Anthrogenica" where I was banned from on 2013, not only Jews, but also Iranians like DMXX who wrote the sentence, all from the foggy London.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:41 am
Gioiello
The Steppe fan boys are clutching at straws looking for L51 samples in Samara and Mongolia etc. All they have to do is look at the descendants of the earliest surviving branches of L51 and they will see them all in Western and Central Europe, the homelands.

Where are all the descendants of this L52* that was found in Mongolia? There are none. It was a dead line. That L52* was not our ancestor. The YDNA samples that need to found in the Steppe should be P312 and U106 before the alleged invasion. We in western Europe are descended from Mr L52>L11. Dead lines do not point to place of origin. They are only strays from central Europe.

The Chalcolithic sample from Bulgaria with R1b (MathiesonNature2018) is M269. Bulgaria is not in the Steppe!

Smyadovo I2181 is M269. YFull dates M269 to "TMRCA 6400 ybp". I2181 is dated to 6453 years ago.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:16 pm
Nothing can be learned from the Swiss dna paper about the origin of P312 or U106. One dna expert suggests that the R1b samples are all post 2,200 BC and most belong to U152>L2.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L2/

Posts: 3177
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:14 am
dartraighe wrote:Nothing can be learned from the Swiss dna paper about the origin of P312 or U106. One dna expert suggests that the R1b samples are all post 2,200 BC and most belong to U152>L2.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L2/


It is possible that there will be nothing new from Switzerland or also from Italy, anyway my ideas are now winning. Read what Gaska and all the others are writing on "Eurogenes blog", beginning from this, and certainly many surprises will come from Italian aDNA from 14000 to 4000 years ago:

Blogger Gaska said...
Interesting times await us because there are three ancient samples that can cause an earthquake in our understanding of population movements during the European Neolithic/Chalcolithic.
1- Smyadovo-I2181 (4.497 BC) Mit Hap-Hv15- It is definitely R1b-M269 with markers at P297 level (CTS9018) and M269 level (PF6452) and what is more important, is negative for all markers downstream R1a and Z2103-Furthermore this case serves to give relevance to ATP3 in Iberia with markers downstream P297 and M269 (PF6518)-So we have R1b-M269 in the Balkans a millennium before Afanasievo and a millennium before the unpublished M269 in Volosovo (which according to my friends are dated around 3,000 BC???)- Everything seems to indicate a movement of R1b-M269 from Western Europe to Eastern Europe, just the opposite of what has been defending the Kurgan Theory for over 10 years. Smyadovo has a little steppe ancestry which is normal because we are in the contact area between the steppes and mainland Europe, belonged to the Gumelnita culture and Its cultural and genetic links (Mit haps) with Anatolia suggest that R1b-M269 does not originate in the steppes.
2- ROU_BA:GLAV_14_Co (3.250 BC)-Makes Alexandria's sample totally irrelevant confirming in my opinion its erroneous dating, makes Yamnaya culture totally irrelevant in its relationship with R1a, explain a R1a movement towards the west long before the CWC and definitely unlink R1a from R1b-L51 in its "hypothetical" westward movement within the CWC- Will be interesting to hear the opinions from linguistic experts about the linguistic implications of R1a in Romania (3.500-3.000 BC)
3-I6222-R1b-L151 (3.117 BC)- It is the most surprising thing I have seen in genetics in recent years because it seems to be linked to the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia, beyond the Altai mountains, that is, in Central / East Asia- Until now, Afanasievo, like Yamnaya, was overwhelmingly Z2103 and suddenly a case of L151 appears dated in 3.117 BC- The genetic analysis was done on a different individual from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date, but it seems that the assignment of the haplogroup is correct, so we will have to find explanations for this situation. I suppose the Chinese will say that R1b-L151 / P311 originates from East Asia (and they certainly would have reason to do so because this sample is by far the oldest case of our lineage found to date), Kurganists will say that they have finally found a link between Afanasievo and Yamnaya (although in any case we would have to talk about Repin / Pre-Yamnaya), and I can only think that this case can demonstrate that the similarities between the Chemurchek culture and the Middle and Late Neolithic of France are not a mere coincidence. Such a close similarity between the cultural phenomena, separated by the distance of over 6,500 kilometers, can only be explained by a migration from the west of Europe to the Mongolian Altai (Mit haps of those Mongolian samples are typical of Whgs and Anatolian farmers, they have nothing to do with Yamnaya)-Evidently Afanasievo and R1b-L151 disappeared from Asia without leaving a genetic and linguistic trace, although some geneticists are still determined to prove otherwise.
April 5, 2020 at 8:52 AM

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:34 am
Gioiello
I am following Gaska's posts because his posts make sense. He is one shining light among all the Steppe dreamers.

The dna evidence has not been produced yet of the birth of P312 and U106 in the Steppe.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:19 am
I6222 is derived for L52 and does not have a read for L151, so this sample was an L52*extinct Y-line and no descendants in Mongolia today is the proof.

The Steppe fan club is still clutching at straws looking for the birth of P312 in any part of the Steppe. The earliest P312 to date was found in the BBC in Germany. The BBC originated in western Europe along with P312. The BBC did not extend into any part of the Steppe. That is a a reality that some do not want to accept. The CWC was not the ancestor of the BBC because the CWC was dominated by R1a male Y line and no R1a samples were found in any BBC sites. WHG and R1b is linked and all R1b BBC samples had WHG.

There is absolutely no evidence to show that P312 originated in the Netherlands so what is all the BS posts about the Dutch BB's being ancestral to all of the Bell Beakers in western Europe?

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:00 am
More nonsense from eurogenes:
"I am not saying that we cannot find R1b individuals in CW or R1a individuals in BB, but that it is quite obvious that there was a distinction between Western and Eastern Europe and that the distinction is too big to be relativized, although to deny that R1b also came from east and also carried EHG ancestry is also ridiculous."

The earliest P312 sample found of the ancestor of the most common R1b group in western Europe today was found in Germany. Germany is not in the east of Europe nor in the Steppe.

It does not matter if the BBC originated in Iberia or the Netherlands the origin of P312 has not been verified in any part of those two regions to date. P312 became the most succesful ydna branch within the BBC but other haplogroups were also found among the BBC, but not one R1a to date.
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