From “Eurogenes blog” but not from Mr Eurogenes


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:49 pm
dartraighe wrote:
Gioiello wrote:Blogger Romulus said...
@Archi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljana_Marshes_Wheel
February 2, 2021 at 6:07 AM

I am speaking not only of an Italian refugium from about 15 years, and lastly of a refugium put in the Padan-Adriatic-Balkan region, but also of the pile dwellers of the Adriatic, the oldest and found also in Italy from the Alps to central Italy, lastly also of R1b-L51-PF7589 from the Venetian region and also of Mokrin aDNA as come from eastern Alps... and probably also Tollense R-L51 etc.



An Italian refuge for R1b is the most reasonable explanation for all the diverse R1b branches in Italy. Villabruna is the proof. The scientists are avoiding Italy because they do not want to find any more surprises that will make them look like fools. They said that there was no R1b in western Europe before 2,500 BC. R1b samples turned up in Neolithic collective graves in Belgium and Switzerland. We look forward to more west European Neolithic samples in the SGC dna paper.



The period before 2,500 BC in western Europe is the Neolithic period and L151 has been found in west Europe before 2,500 BC. If posters want to write about Aesch25 and his 75% autosomal dna then write also about the other R1b samples with little CWC dna. Aesch25 having 75% CWC dna does not mean that Aesch 25 was not born in west Europe. There is no way of knowing but Aesch25 Y-line could have been in Switzerland for at least 10 generations. We all know this from our own autosomal dna and our y-dna profiles.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 am
More rubbish from the general.
"All of the hard evidence we have points to L51 spreading west with the Corded Ware population."

>L51 did not spread west with the CWC because L51 was dead for 1,000 years in the time of the CWC. The general does not know the difference between a bottleneck and an expansion. There is no evidence of an L151 or P312 Y-dna trail from Poland to western Europe. The dna he is writing about is autosomal dna which was carried by the R1a dominant CWC along with their Steppe females. That is the only explanation.

The BBC in Poland and Hungary came from a P312 expansion from the west, not from the east. And we know this because P312 was not born east of Poland or Hungary. The general needs to cop on as he is making an idiot of himself. Giving y-dna branches the wrong status is an attempt to mislead the masses. There was no L51 expansion due to the bottleneck. If it was the case that one L151 man arrived in western Europe from any part of the Steppe it was not possible for him to change the autosomal dna by 70% no matter how many descendants he produced with the local women. The Steppe autosomal dna had to come from another source but it definitely was not P312. We know this because P312 was not born and did not expand from the Steppe. And it certainly was not through P312 chain migration from the Steppe because no evidence has been produced by the scientists. Any poster using the term L51 for the P312 found in the BBC is being dishonest.

We know for sure that the massive L21 presence in Ireland has nothing to with a Steppe migration. France is the most talked about source for L21 but that has yet to be decided. L21 could have an origin in Ireland.
Last edited by dartraighe on Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:54 am
Blogger Rob said...
@ Archie
“ Baden-Boleraz has always been considered as a derivative of the Cernavodă culture, which in turn goes back to the Suvorovo group of the Sredniy Stog culture. Baden is a continuation of Boleraz. ”
Everybody except you now understands that these are demographically distinct groups. Neither derives from one another .
You have cherry -picked one individual with ~ 10% ancestry ; whilst the rest lack it. Ba-Bol males are G2a and I2a1
This merely proves the autochthonous origin of Baden - Boleraz
You have tried to deny the role of Central Europe in the origins of wheels and failed, then you tried to claim that they are in fact from the steppe & failed
. I don’t know if you are simply too stupid, or have deeply set problems. Probably both; but your posts are almost always contemptuous of evidence
February 3, 2021 at 3:38 AM
Blogger EastPole said...
@Rob
“It’s gone, the only people left with the delusion that PIE just appeared out of nowhere are Archie and David Anthony
Been watching too many Chingiz Khan movies”
It is all very complex and confusing. I did a lot of comparative studies on IE influences in early Rigveda, in Orphico-Pythagorean and Slavic religions. By IE influences I mean what is common in them and probably from the same early source.
There are such common elements and there was a common early source but what is important that early source religion was not primitive at all. I don’t think it came from männerbünde or jungmannschaf wolf-skin cloaks wearing steppe proto-Celto-Germanic warriors of David Anthony.
Maybe it was from Vinca, as Alinei thinks, or Tripolye or LBK/TRB? I don’t know. Looks like advanced peaceful civilization.
February 3, 2021 at 4:03 AM

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:41 am
"I started to brownse freely for the first time on genetic forums just for fun and out of curiosity. I think he was an irish man that posted very often on the Gioiello site IIRC. His name was Dartrage or something like that. He was very strong on the R1b L51 from the west theory."


>I did not write that L51 came from the west. I wrote some posts about the origin and expansion of P312 in western Europe and the evidence now points to L151 in west Europe also. I am still waiting for ancient dna evidence about the Neolithic L51 samples because we know that L51 is a Neolithic branch of R1b.




Not one P312 has been found in any part of the Steppe and yet they write that P312 invaded western Europe from the Steppe because the anglophiles do not like the Iberians or the Celts, and the General writes absolute bull about autosomal dna.

They do not have a clue about y-dna groups and one can see that from the rubbish that they write every day on other forums. They are all anti-Iberian and anti Irish posters. We have asked them on numerous occasions to explain the R1b diversity in Italy and all we get is silence. They want the scientists to dig up the whole steppe region to try and find one P312 male who will support their so called invasion of west Europe in the BA and we know they cannot find one. P312 was born around 2,800 BC in western Europe. The evidence is coming from the ancient dna samples in west Europe.
Last edited by dartraighe on Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:47 am
dartraighe wrote:"I started to brow[n]se freely for the first time on genetic forums just for fun and out of curiosity. I think he was an irish man that posted very often on the Gioiello site IIRC. His name was Dartra[i]ge or something like that. He was very strong on the R1b L51 from the west theory."


Dartraighe, I am coming just to read and copy those posts. You know that I was banned from Anthrogenica like you too and I was forbidden even to read that blog, even though they dedicated a thread to me that is always there even though in the dark bottom of "General", but it was read more than 100 thousand times (as this thread, in spite of what these morons wrote there). I am able to read that blog with a trick, because its owners (and you know who they are and which their purpose, "criminal" I'd say, is). I have nothing to add if you too read these last posts. They seem to me desperate. Your "friends" is trying to justify the presence of R-L51 in the Adriatic and Northern Alps (what I am saying from 15 years) with a migration by sea from the Black Sea. All desperate, not only your "friend" but also Generalissimo/Davidski etc and even Michal (with whom I exchanged many letters here before the hesodus lead from the "criminals") etc. I don't speak of an Italian, without "arte né parte" (etrusco, old europe, Lorenzo Bertini, etc,). As our greatest poet wrote: "non ti curar di lor ma guarda e passa".

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:41 am
Your "friend" writes: "Of course, since I believe in the immortality of the soul, if I do die, I can ask God about it in person and maybe even meet some old dead Single Grave Corded Ware guys and ask a few questions".
If so, perhaps you may reconcile with him after the death. Me, till I'll be alive, will consider him a "moron" and someone who understands of genetics history and all the rest how he understands of religion, i.e. practically zero.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:59 pm
Gioiello wrote:Your "friend" writes: "Of course, since I believe in the immortality of the soul, if I do die, I can ask God about it in person and maybe even meet some old dead Single Grave Corded Ware guys and ask a few questions".
If so, perhaps you may reconcile with him after the death. Me, till I'll be alive, will consider him a "moron" and someone who understands of genetics history and all the rest how he understands of religion, i.e. practically zero.


He does not need to wait for the SGC paper. All he has to do is ask you nicely because you know a lot more about YSTRs and YSNPs than any other poster in any of the forums.

The y-dna that needs to be found in the Steppe is P312 and subclades between 2,800BC and 3,000 BC. None has been found among the Yamnaya to date. So we know that the Yamnaya did not carry P312 into western Europe. And we know also that the CWC did not carry P312 into western Europe because there is no P312 y-dna trail from Poland to Switzerland. The evidence so far shows that the P312 found in Poland and Hungary was the result of a west to east movement of the P312 dominated Bell Beaker people. If P312 originated in Holland I will be surprised also but not disappointed. Holland is not in the Russian Steppe.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:53 pm
Gio
One very desperate poster is still writing nonsense about the so called CWC samples in SE Poland.

The unresolved L51 sample PCW070, age according to Yfull 1,890 BC and the unresolved sample PCW040 age according to Yfull 1,950 BC. The CWC culture ended in 2,350 BC. There were west European R1b Bell Beaker samples found in Poland earlier than these "CWC" samples. The Polish "CWC" samples (extinct lines) have no bearing what so ever on the genesis of P312 in the Bell Beakers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
"The Corded Ware culture (outdated called Battle Axe culture) comprises a broad archaeological horizon of Europe between c. 3100 BC – circa 2350 BC"


And he continues to write claptrap about the extinct L52 line found in Mongolia which has nothing to do with the genesis of L151 in west Europe. If anything he was a straggler from west/central Europe who kicked the bucket in Mongolia without producing any offspring.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:54 pm
dartraighe wrote:And he continues to write claptrap about the extinct L52 line found in Mongolia which has nothing to do with the genesis of L151 in west Europe.


It isn't true that these haplotyps are extinct: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/ becasue we have Amerighi (YF66329/YF13201), whom I was the first to find, and YF79745 who may descend from them, or even from the sample from Mongolia, in fact we don't know if Amerighi descends from German people during medieval times or even from an Asiatic sample. Extinct so far are the samples PCW362 and PCW361 with the mutation Y215377 not found so far. But these sample are important because they may be an hint as to where R-L11 may have come.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:03 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:And he continues to write claptrap about the extinct L52 line found in Mongolia which has nothing to do with the genesis of L151 in west Europe.


Extinct so far are the samples PCW362 and PCW361 with the mutation Y215377 not found so far. But these sample are important because they may be an hint as to where R-L11 may have come.


I don't think that you can say that. The L151 found in Switzerland is earlier than these two samples and none of the 1,000's of modern R1b testers are linked to the Polish pair.

And there is an R1b Neolithic sample to come from Belgium yet. If the rumours are correct the SGC samples will be earlier than the Polish samples also. The Bell Beaker R1b samples in Poland are earlier than these two CWC samples. This is not proof that Y215377 the brother branch of L151 originated in Poland. L151 is 5,000 years old not 4,355 ybp. One would expect that Z215377 was around 5,000 ybp also. The Steppe fan club flip flopped when these Polish samples were found because they were adamant that the CWC was not the ancestor of the Bell Beakers. The BBC is not derived from the CWC, not on the Y line. Some posters are clutching at straws. The CWC on their way east did not carry R1b and the evidence is in the ancient dna.

The two modern L52* that you write about are as closely related to the PCW samples as Z2110 is related to Z156. And the two modern samples are not even in the same downstream branch.

Just like the 50 plus downstream branches of P312 at Yfull. They are all single entries which means they belong to separate branches and none have been found in Bell Beaker sites yet. Where do they all fit into of this Bell Beaker theory? No one seems to care.
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