From “Eurogenes blog” but not from Mr Eurogenes


Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:24 am
dartraighe wrote:Just like the 50 plus downstream branches of P312 at Yfull. They are all single entries which means they belong to separate branches and none have been found in Bell Beaker sites yet. Where do they all fit into of this Bell Beaker theory? No one seems to care.


About these "50 plus downstream branches of P312 at Yfull" I studied them and wrote a lot in the past. They are pretty all not tested for many downstream SNPs, so pretty none is R-P312* and they are deceitful if taken for an indication of their presumed place of origin. Also at the R-P312-DF27* level there was only one sample and came from Sicily and not from the presumed origin in Iberia, even though it may have come to Sicily from everywhere. It is interesting that the R1b in aDNA from Bell Beaker Sicily is fundamental "German" at the autosomal level, in fact he matches at MTA my daughter-in-law who is Flemish and 100% Franck, Viking and other German peoples, and not only me 99,5% Italian in 23andMe now neither my wife from Sicily have anything in common with her... but I should study again those samples after so much time.

Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:07 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Just like the 50 plus downstream branches of P312 at Yfull. They are all single entries which means they belong to separate branches and none have been found in Bell Beaker sites yet. Where do they all fit into of this Bell Beaker theory? No one seems to care.


About these "50 plus downstream branches of P312 at Yfull" I studied them and wrote a lot in the past. They are pretty all not tested for many downstream SNPs, so pretty none is R-P312* and they are deceitful if taken for an indication of their presumed place of origin. Also at the R-P312-DF27* level there was only one sample and came from Sicily and not from the presumed origin in Iberia, even though it may have come to Sicily from everywhere. It is interesting that the R1b in aDNA from Bell Beaker Sicily is fundamental "German" at the autosomal level, in fact he matches at MTA my daughter-in-law who is Flemish and 100% Franck, Viking and other German peoples, and not only me 99,5% Italian in 23andMe now neither my wife from Sicily have anything in common with her... but I should study again those samples after so much time.


The FTDNA block tree has broken those down to 8 major branches of P312 and 25 sub-branches under the 8 major branches of P312. My point is that only two of the major branches of P312 (ZZ11 and Z290) have been found among the Bell Beakers to date. The other branches were born in western and central Europe but were not part of the Bell Beaker culture!!!!Were they R1b commoners also? The most important point that can be made is that no P312 has been found in the Steppe prior to their discovery in western European BBC sites. That means that P312 and subclades were all born in western Europe.


"The earliest known R1b-L23 burial is from the middle Volga region (I0443 R1b1a2a L23 W3a1a Lopatino, Samara 3300-2700 BC (midpoint 3,000 BC")

> L23 formed 4,400 BC and TMRCA 4,100 BC according to Yfull. This I0443 sample is 1,000 years downstream of L23 and unresolved L23 Y-line.

> Z2103 is older than this I0443 sample by 1,000 years.

> The earliest M269* sample was found in Bulgaria not Samara.

>The Mongolian L52* sample which is earlier than I0443 sample produced no descendants.

>There is no L51 Y-dna trail from eastern Europe to western Europe.

>The origin of L23 in the Balkans makes absolute sense.

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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:16 pm
Some of the BB's in southern Poland have earlier dates than the CWC samples that were published at Yfull!!!!!

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northe ... _in_Poland

"However, it is only with reference to the southern Polish agglomerations that one can talk about genuine Beakers, dated between 2500 and 2200 BC."

"The sum of probability distribution of all the calibrated dates stays in the interval between 2470 and 2270 BC"

"At the Polish Lowlands, in the mid of 3rd millennium BC, the Iwno Culture emerged, a syncretic unit that combines traits of Bell Beakers, the Single Grave Culture and to a lesser degree early Únìtice Culture."

Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:24 pm
dartraighe wrote:Some of the BB's in southern Poland have earlier dates than the CWC samples that were published at Yfull!!!!!

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northe ... _in_Poland

"However, it is only with reference to the southern Polish agglomerations that one can talk about genuine Beakers, dated between 2500 and 2200 BC."

"The sum of probability distribution of all the calibrated dates stays in the interval between 2470 and 2270 BC"

"At the Polish Lowlands, in the mid of 3rd millennium BC, the Iwno Culture emerged, a syncretic unit that combines traits of Bell Beakers, the Single Grave Culture and to a lesser degree early Únìtice Culture."



More lies from anthrogenica.
"No R1b-M269 in Europe west of the steppe before roughly the start of the 3rd millennium BC and then only in connection with cultures regarded as Indo-European."

>M269 was a Mesolithic haplogroup.

> L51 was a Neolithic haplogroup and one cannot write that a Neolithic haplogroup invaded west Europe in the Bronze Age because that would be a lie.

>There was no massive R1b invasion/ migration from the Steppe at any time in human history.

>No P312 found east of central Europe before 2,750 BC

>No P312 found in any part of the Steppe yet.

>No BBC sites found in any part of the Steppe.

>The P312 branch found in Iberia did not arrive or derive from the Steppe even if they all had 90% "Steppe"autosomal dna . More lies.

>The CWC was a Polish origin culture

>The SGC was a west European origin culture.

> The BBC was a west European origin culture.

> Any poster who writes that L151, P312 and derived subclades were Steppe origin subhaplogroups is a barefaced liar.

Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:05 am
The scientists stated that the R1b found in the Bell Beaker culture arrived en masse from the Steppe in the Bronze Age. The R1b found in the Beaker culture graves belonged to P312 and subclades, DF27, L21 and U152. So the onus is on the scientists to produce 100's of P312 ancient dna samples from the Steppe that were earlier than the samples found in the BBC sites. If they cannot do that then they need to admit that they were wrong. The evidence produced so far is that P312 and subclades originated and expanded in western Europe. There has not been enough evidence produced yet to establish the origins of U106 or any other minor branches of L151.

Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:38 am
Great discussions in "Eurogenes blog":

Blogger Aleph said...
Alright thats it, blogspot sucks at handling comments. This will be my last one here, if it passes through that is.
@Rob
In the map there were a few dots in northern Balkans, my older idea was the southern Balkan origin of WHGs.
@Archi
The unscaled vs scaled comparison that david demonstrated in an old anthrogenica thread looked like the basic fst results. It put Europeans closer to Africans and East Asians than to WHGs. So it looks unreliable right off the bat. Furthermore, modeling Yamnaya unscaled gives it like 12.5% Iran_N ancestry. I am not going to stand by it, but you should since you love unscaldes so much, though I recall you seething about it for a while so IDK if you will be consistent with that.
Lastly, your analogies to other European HGs utterly fail. U8a is not deeply rooted outside of Europe (unlike U8b1 and K) and it would have originated with the Solutreans. So you shouldn't expect to find it outside of the Solutrean-Magdalenian range since it came from a population backed up into Iberia by the Gravettian expansion and then kept there by the LGM.
U8c on the other hand barely exists both in the present and the past. Its presence in Gravettian indicates a minor presence which was then probably wiped out by the LGM. The only other U8c(s) that I am aware off are from Yadavs. This fits well with an early European UP -> Levant Aurignacian -> South Asia route migration for a south Asian U8c, and also for south Asian U2. It was probably accompanied by yDNA H which may have come from Europe or joined in the middle east, doesn't matter either way since it fits. So this fits in the larger scenario where U8 and U6 migrate from Europe to the near east and then U6 goes to north Africa while K remains and develops in the near east. As such the U8c you bring up helps my case more than it helps you. That U'2-'9 from Sicily was a more extreme case of the U8a effect and may have been it's own U like a U10 as per what some people have said over here. Not rooted outside of Europe unlike K so the scenario fails.
For K to be European in origin, it spread to Anatolia before it got to other places in Europe outside of SEEurope, all the while when WHG were spreading around their autosomal cluster and mtDNA U5 very clearly throughout Europe. U8a was limited to Magdalenians for obvious reasons, the Sicilian U10 was a very much local thing, European U8c died a long time ago. So yeah, none of that provides a precedence for what happened with K. One thing which could allow for European K is for Balkans to be more linked to Anatolia than to other parts of Europe or a second alternative to my [U8 (early European UP) -> U8b (Levant Aurignacian) -> K (emerging in Levant)] is K splitting in the WHG and pre-Dzudzuana proto-WHG split.
You can respond if you want, but this is my last comment, so you won't be getting a response from me here. I am on anthrogenica with the same name so you can PM me over there.
March 7, 2021 at 2:59 PM
Blogger Tigran said...
Anybody see Reich's latest youtube video? From what I saw and saw discussed
-Apparently there are over 10,500 unpublished samples. I'd love to know where they are all from.
-Their unpublished data shows the origin of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Unetice is in Yamnaya. I would guess that would mean R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 popped up in Yamnaya.
-They also confirmed the steppe ancestry in Tocharians is from Afanasievo (I guess that means they tested mummies in the Tarim Basin and they turned out to be R1b-Z2103 Steppe_EMBA like people).
Also if the Bacho Kiro guy turns out to be something other than P/pre-R how does that change our thinking on the origin of K2b/P? Do we still think that population lives as far east as the Yana RHS site or do we think some sort of K2b/P will pop up between the Urals and Eastern Siberia?
March 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM
Blogger Coldmountains said...
sorry for going off-topic
but can anyone here get access to these samples and convert them to a format usable for Global25 or Gedmatch?. These are 60 new samples from Tajikistan (Tajiks, Sarikoli and Wakhi). Many of these groups are not on Global25 yet.
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000278
March 7, 2021 at 5:42 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
@Tigran
-They also confirmed the steppe ancestry in Tocharians is from Afanasievo (I guess that means they tested mummies in the Tarim Basin and they turned out to be R1b-Z2103 Steppe_EMBA like people).
Reich is citing the Ning et al. paper, which claimed that the Shirenzigou nomads belonged to R1b-M269 and had Afanasievo ancestry.
But of course they don't belong to R1b-M269, but rather to a distantly related Central Asian lineage, and one of them actually belongs to R1a-Z93.
What this means is that the Shirenzigou nomads have local Central Asian ancestry, as well as Steppe_MLBA ancestry.
So they do not provide the genetic evidence that Tocharians were derived from Afanasievo.
March 7, 2021 at 8:45 PM
Blogger Rob said...
@ Aleph
The very south of Europe was relatively peripheral for hunter-gatherers, colonised fairly late (might seem counterintuitive; but outlined quite nicely in the Sicily HG papers; which did a great job of combining genetics and archaeology).
But overall, it seems that ‘WHG’ involved accretion of ancestries from a few zones
@ Norfern
I wrote a reply but it didn’t make it through..
In Central Asia there have been sites documented in the western foothills of Inner asian corridor (from ~ 40-10,000 BP); hence would fill the gap between Iran and southern Siberia
Seem to show typological affinities with zagros assemblages
March 7, 2021 at 9:04 PM

Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:01 am
"Blogger Tigran said...
Anybody see Reich's latest youtube video? From what I saw and saw discussed
-Apparently there are over 10,500 unpublished samples. I'd love to know where they are all from.
-Their unpublished data shows the origin of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Unetice is in Yamnaya. I would guess that would mean R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 popped up in Yamnaya."

>The ydna groups that need to turn up in Yamnaya is L151, P312 and U106, not L51. L51 is older than Yamnaya by around 1,000 years.

> If they have the earliest P312 samples from the Steppe why don't they publish them instead of speaking claptrap about Steppe autosomal dna?

Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:13 am
dartraighe wrote:"Blogger Tigran said...
Anybody see Reich's latest youtube video? From what I saw and saw discussed
-Apparently there are over 10,500 unpublished samples. I'd love to know where they are all from.
-Their unpublished data shows the origin of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Unetice is in Yamnaya. I would guess that would mean R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 popped up in Yamnaya."

>The ydna groups that need to turn up in Yamnaya is L151, P312 and U106, not L51. L51 is older than Yamnaya by around 1,000 years.

> If they have the earliest P312 samples from the Steppe why don't they publish them instead of speaking claptrap about Steppe autosomal dna?


I agree with all your questions, and we both gave our answers more than 10 years ago. We haven't got hidden data. You know what I think about these presumed Jews and their agendas.
The post of Aleph is interesting, and he seems fond also in the autosomal data. As usual no data about origins, Y and mt in Anthrogenica.

Posts: 3147
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:21 am
Gioiello wrote:I agree with all your questions, and we both gave our answers more than 10 years ago. We haven't got hidden data. You know what I think about these presumed Jews and their agendas.
The post of Aleph is interesting, and he seems fond also in the autosomal data. As usual no data about origins, Y and mt in Anthrogenica.


From a friend of mine: "me this guy from L210 who appeared on the tree did not answer the letter".
Probably a fake Jew. He puts L210 for not showing his terminal SNP which would demonstrate his origins. Perhaps I know who he is.

Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:01 am
More claptrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2220318352

Summary
"The transition from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age has witnessed important population and societal changes in western Europe.1 These include massive genomic contributions of pastoralist herders originating from the Pontic-Caspian steppes2,3 into local populations, resulting from complex interactions between collapsing hunter-gatherers and expanding farmers of Anatolian ancestry.4, 5, 6, 7, 8 This transition is documented through extensive ancient genomic data from present-day Britain,9,10 Ireland,11,12 Iberia,13 Mediterranean islands,14,15 and Germany.8 It remains, however, largely overlooked in France, where most focus has been on the Middle Neolithic (n = 63),8,9,16 with the exception of one Late Neolithic genome sequenced at 0.05× coverage.16 This leaves the key transitional period covering ∼3,400–2,700 cal. years (calibrated years) BCE genetically unsampled and thus the exact time frame of hunter-gatherer persistence and arrival of steppe migrations unknown. To remediate this, we sequenced 24 ancient human genomes from France spanning ∼3,400–1,600 cal. years BCE. This reveals Late Neolithic populations that are genetically diverse and include individuals with dark skin, hair, and eyes. We detect heterogeneous hunter-gatherer ancestries within Late Neolithic communities, reaching up to ∼63.3% in some individuals, and variable genetic contributions of steppe herders in Bell Beaker populations. We provide an estimate as late as ∼3,800 years BCE for the admixture between Neolithic and Mesolithic populations and as early as ∼2,650 years BCE for the arrival of steppe-related ancestry. The genomic heterogeneity characterized underlines the complex history of human interactions even at the local scale."

>We know from ancient ydna samples that there was no massive invasion/migration of P312 Steppe pastoralists into France because P312 was not found in the Steppe.

> They learned all of this from 24 samples?

>The ydna found in the Bell Beakers was P312 and 2,650 years ago P312 was only beginning to expand in west Europe, but, not from any part of the Steppe.
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