From “Eurogenes blog” but not from Mr Eurogenes


Posts: 3265
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:13 pm
"Go back 5000 years, and you could fit the men who left Y-DNA descendants into a large room"

>That statement from a scientist means that there was no mass R1b migration from the Steppe between 4,500 and 5,000 years ago. We already knew that from the absence of L151,P312 and U106 samples coming from the Steppe and from modern ydna samples also.

>The Steppe autosomal dna needs an explanation that does not contain R1b in it. It was not L151, P312 or U106 who carried autosomal dna from the Steppe.

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:48 am
Blogger vAsiSTha said...
https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1b/
Basal R1b is found in Dzharkutan sample I4315
May 9, 2021 at 11:29 AM
Blogger vAsiSTha said...
@Rob
"That’s not basal, but unresolved . You’re a muppet"
Wow i think i hit a nerve. I guess you yourself are on the R1b line? Thats why it hurts? lol
I have the snp file and Y calls of I4315 (because i know how to do that and check for myself). See for yourself whats unresolved.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZGfTxq ... sp=sharing
There is not a single valid call below R1b which is +ve. All R1b1 (10 snps) and R1b2(3 snps) calls are -ve.
This is why the samples has been put by Yfull under R1b and not R1b*
May 9, 2021 at 2:27 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
European R1b lines, including M269, are rooted in Europe since the Paleolithic.
So the R1b in Yamnaya, Bell Beakers, etc. has nothing to do with Central Asia.
May 9, 2021 at 2:32 PM
Blogger vAsiSTha said...
@Rob
"It’ll be PH155/ 200"
Keep whining crybaby. because it is negative the equivalent 3 SNPS at R1b2 level of PH155
rs779989989 G>A Found G
rs978669961 G>A Found G
rs1055222056 G>C Found G
May 9, 2021 at 2:37 PM
Blogger Archi said...
Bronze Uzbekistan Dzharkutan [I4315 / UZ-JAR-004, Jarkutan 4b-85, Grave 60 ] 1609-1465 calBCE (3255±15 BP, PSUAMS-2518) M R1b1(xR1b1a) pre-PH155 R2+13500+195 Narasimhan 2019
May 9, 2021 at 2:50 PM
Blogger claravallensis said...
Looks fairly clearly like some dead end pre-PH155 to me, plenty of ancestral calls under R1b1 so it's irrelevant for European R1b.
http://sprunge.us/n5RsDk
May 9, 2021 at 2:55 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
But the fact is that European subclades of R1b are rooted in Europe since the Paleolithic.
Also, there were hunter-gatherers rich in CHG-like ancestry on the European steppe, and Yamnaya doesn't have anything to do with Central Asia or even Khvalynsk.
So there's no need to bring Central Asian sheep into the argument. Let's just stick to human DNA from Europe.
May 10, 2021 at 12:48 AM

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:29 am
Blogger Davidski said...
@Matt
Khvalynsk and Yamnaya seem to have different origins in that a large part of their hunter-gatherer ancestry is different.
The hunter-gatherer input in Yamnaya has more WHG, and I'll explain this in more detail later this week.
So Anthony was actually correct when he called Khvalynsk the "uncle" of Yamnaya, because the CHG in Khvalynsk and Yamnaya is probably from the same population, but this population diverged during the Eneolithic to form at least two separate groups and also clines.
May 11, 2021 at 1:43 AM

Posts: 3265
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 5:24 pm
Gioiello wrote:Blogger Davidski said...
@Matt
Khvalynsk and Yamnaya seem to have different origins in that a large part of their hunter-gatherer ancestry is different.
The hunter-gatherer input in Yamnaya has more WHG, and I'll explain this in more detail later this week.
So Anthony was actually correct when he called Khvalynsk the "uncle" of Yamnaya, because the CHG in Khvalynsk and Yamnaya is probably from the same population, but this population diverged during the Eneolithic to form at least two separate groups and also clines.
May 11, 2021 at 1:43 AM


It is possible that the Z2103 in Yamnaya is linked to the WHG component in Yamnaya, not the CHG, ANE or EHG components.

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:57 pm
I thank you for this post, David Wesolowsky, in fact this is only what remained unchanged in them from the time of Publius Vergilius Maro: timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts
I wasn't going to blog about the Unterländer et al. "Aegean palatial civilizations" paper, because I think that it's a rather strange effort overall. But apparently a lot of people want to know my thoughts on the topic, so here goes.
If you download the relevant PDF file (here) and do a search for "Slav", you'll see that the word doesn't appear at all. How is that possible, considering the massive impact that the Slavs had on the Balkans, including Greece, during the Middle Ages?
Indeed, here's a quote from page 12 of the PDF: "Present-day Greeks - who also carry Steppe-related ancestry - share ~90% of their ancestry with MBA northern Aegeans, suggesting continuity between the two time periods."
That's a very optimistic view. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever in the paper that there's even 1% genetic continuity between present-day Greeks and any ancient Greek population, let alone the MBA northern Aegeans.
The genetic impact of Medieval Slavic migrations on most present-day Greek populations is easy to see. For instance, below are several linear models based on D-statistics of the form D(Outgroup,Test;Ancient1,Ancient2). You don't need a PhD in mathematics to understand them. The relevant data file is available here.
Note that most of the present-day Greek groups cluster together, and they also form fairly neat clines with the other Greeks, as well as Cypriots, other Balkan populations, including those speaking Slavic languages, and also the Slavic-speaking Ukrainians. On the other hand, they don't overlap with any of the ancient groups from Greece and surrounds, nor do they generally form obvious clines with them.
To me this suggests that most present-day Greeks harbor significant levels of Slavic ancestry and some sort of recent Cypriot-related ancestry, and in large part they're only coincidentally similar to ancient Aegeans, including those from the MBA (labeled Greece_Helladic_MBA in my graphs).
And let me assure you that no matter which ancient populations you run in such D-stats, you'll always see similar present-day Greek clusters and present-day Balkan clines.
Obviously, it's fair enough to assume that there's been some genetic continuity in the Aegean from the Iron Age, Bronze Age, and even the Copper Age and Neolithic era to the present-day. But the point I'm making is that no one has yet proved this, or even attempted to measure it properly.
The Unterländer et al. paper includes some very nice ancient genomes, which I've already included in the Global25 datasheets, but I'm left wondering about the true motivations of its authors, many of whom are Greeks.

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:44 am
After the "Reich clown kabbal" of Rob (Robert George), we have in "Eurogenes blog", the blog dedicated to the autosome as to the "Jewish, leftist and gay mafia of the aDNA", we have now: "The galaxy-brained 'unified genealogy' paper that some Reich guys were on might represent another such play. Not sure what else might be used: perhaps rare variant sharing à la rarecoal; perhaps very detailed analysis of Y haplogroups, which academics don't exploit nearly as much as they should and which, with truly huge numbers of WGS, can be more informative than even the most learned graduates of the online yeshivas of the ISOGGic Talmud can currently comprehend".

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:04 pm
Da questi dati autosomici postati da Davidski su "Eurogenes blog" la dimostrazione che la migrazione dei WHG del "Rifugio italiano" portarono nel Baltico, fra l'altro, hg R1b1: i dati più antichi di R-M73*, etc.
Distance to: ITA_Tagliente:TaglienteRecalled
0.32401562 Latvian
0.32461543 Lithuanian_PZ
0.32467056 Lithuanian_SZ
0.32590720 Estonian
0.32692736 Finnish_East
0.32811274 Karelian
0.32943260 Finnish
0.32991215 Ingrian
0.33103637 Lithuanian_VZ
0.33116828 Lithuanian_VA
0.33253372 Vepsian
0.33366877 Lithuanian_RA
0.33372755 Russian_Pinega
0.33533096 Lithuanian_PA
0.33822300 Belarusian
0.33946039 Russian_Smolensk
0.33964514 Swedish
0.33983948 Cossack_Kuban
0.34157392 Russian_Tver
0.34231404 Russian_Kostroma
0.34236932 Icelandic
0.34301603 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.34354745 Russian_Voronez
0.34374576 Polish
0.34395186 Sorb_Niederlausitz
e che l'Iberia deriva dal Rame e Bronzo italiano:
Distance to: ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
0.03513297 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03754515 Spanish_Castello
0.03768567 Spanish_Navarra
0.03868861 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03939454 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03946729 Spanish_Valencia
0.03966107 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03977246 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04002930 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04013348 Spanish_Alacant
0.04031859 Spanish_Lleida
0.04041105 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04068449 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04144315 Spanish_Penedes
0.04148148 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04193799 Spanish_Aragon
0.04255606 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04265715 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04265822 Spanish_Girona
0.04303597 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04326183 French_South
0.04348646 Spanish_Soria
0.04352826 Spanish_Andalucia
0.04417550 Spanish_Galicia
0.04444877 Spanish_Baleares
Of course amateurs in Anthrogenica don't understand anything of these data:
Nino90 replied to a thread 22 genomes from Northeastern and Central Italy dated between 3200 and 1500 BCE in Ancient (aDNA)
"That is pure Nordicist claims. Ancient Italic had more WHG than modern Italians for sure. But I'd highly doubt that they had Nordic phenotypes"
i.e. that the other way around happened.


---------------------------------------
Solo per curiosita l'antenato R-DF90 di Francalacci:
Distance to: ITA_Broion_BA:BRC002
0.03557309 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03776736 Spanish_Castello
0.03804572 Spanish_Murcia
0.03878273 Spanish_Baleares
0.03973546 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04021362 Spanish_Girona
0.04033128 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04054774 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04067647 Spanish_Menorca
0.04069179 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04096466 Spanish_Extremadura
0.04126895 French_Corsica
0.04143689 Spanish_Valencia
0.04178317 Spanish_Alacant
0.04208020 Spanish_Penedes
0.04211779 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04213058 Spanish_Soria
0.04220603 Spanish_Lleida
0.04240674 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04267009 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04304205 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04346930 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04361758 Italian_Bergamo
0.04399897 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04429104 Spanish_Andalucia

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:55 pm
Blogger Andrzejewski said...
@Arza “ It's not easy to say where it did come from, but it's pretty easy to say from where it didn't.”
It may indicate a survival of Balkanic Farmer groups into BA or even the IA.
I always suspected that the Paleo-Balkanic languages (Thracian, Illyrian, Messopic, Panonian, Dacian etc) arose from a Yamnaya Hungary/Bulgaria mixing with Tripolyans and Beaker Hungary pops.
So now we can also basically nail down (some) of the differences between the archeogenetic origins of Balto-Slavs and Nordic BA (Proto-Germanics) to the latter’s farmer ancestry deriving from GAC while B-S’s one is more “Southern”.
Is there a discontinuity between LBK v. TRB/GAC? I read that LBK were the groups that moved to Germany from the Balkan (Kurus, related to CTC) but the TRB are mostly a Cardial Pottery groups who had taken the maritime route and then massively assimilated various and distinct WHG groups along the way and they replaced the LBK by way of displacement/replacement?
May 21, 2021 at 4:50 AM

Ahahahah, thus Latin did come from the Adriatic pile dwellers and Italic and Celtic were R-L51-PF7589 and R-L11 downstream from the Alpine zone as I am saying from more than 10 years....

Posts: 3265
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 6:36 pm
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... ajpa.24302

Y-chromosome variability and genetic history of Commons from Northern Italy.
Stefania Sarno, Rajiv Boscolo Agostini, Sara De Fanti, Gianmarco Ferri, Silvia Ghirotto, Giorgia Modenini, Davide Pettener, Alessio Boattini

Abstract

"Genetic drift and admixture are driving forces in human evolution, but their concerted impact to population evolution in historical times and at a micro-geographic scale is poorly assessed. In this study we test a demographic model encompassing both admixture and drift to the case of social-cultural isolates such as the so-called “Commons.”"

Posts: 3144
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 7:16 pm
dartraighe wrote:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.24302

Y-chromosome variability and genetic history of Commons from Northern Italy.
Stefania Sarno, Rajiv Boscolo Agostini, Sara De Fanti, Gianmarco Ferri, Silvia Ghirotto, Giorgia Modenini, Davide Pettener, Alessio Boattini

Abstract

"Genetic drift and admixture are driving forces in human evolution, but their concerted impact to population evolution in historical times and at a micro-geographic scale is poorly assessed. In this study we test a demographic model encompassing both admixture and drift to the case of social-cultural isolates such as the so-called “Commons.”"


I thank you for this link. I had only one with an Italian translation but I want the original. It seems to me that this research was already done in the past, perhaps they tested again these samples with a more reliable test. About Sarno et al. you may read here some review of mine in the past... but this school of Bologna and Ravenna is doing great papers now, and I thanked here both Boattini and Luiselli who were in a mail list of mine. Some paper of theirs demonstrated two refugia in Italy (in the North and in the South) but none speaks of them for what I could see....
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