From “Eurogenes blog” but not from Mr Eurogenes


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:41 am
Blogger Rob said...
@ Arza
Thanks
@ Andrze
“ On top of it all, Balkan pops have lots of E1b1b and J, which is very common in both SE Europe and the Near East, which can indicate either an Anatolian BA admixture into both directions, or a PPNB/PPNC amalgamation of Anatolians and Levantines “”
But it fact it’s doesnt. For ex E-V13 / which is the “European” clade of E-M78 has a near-absence in the Near East .
It’s not even common in Neolithic Balkans. It means there’s some pretty complex history going on there which the public isn’t yet aware of (& I doubt most academics are either, because they’re don’t tend to look at this sort of detail).
With J; you’d need to specify which clade you’re talking about :J1a2, J2a1h, J2b2 ?
There’s no single narrative.
For all these sort of discussions you guys are having; we need to know every aspect of detail in fairly fine time-slices to make sound proposals.
May 22, 2021 at 11:59 PM

Without the Harvardians' agenda, for the known causes, it would be clear from so long.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2021 10:31 am
L'espressione del Sizzo quando capisce di averlo preso nel culo!


Blogger old europe said...
The Leski cave sample is from a Swiderian archeological site. The sample scores IIRC 60/70% WHG. Dneper Don foragers seem to be derived mostly from Swiderians.
May 26, 2021 at 12:35 AM

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:40 am
Perhaps more and more people is taking seriously my mottos now: "Jewish-Nigger conspiracy", "Jewish, leftist and gay mafia of the aDNA", "Reich clown kabbal" exprimes only my thought but is due to Rob:

Davidski has left a new comment on the post "A Greek tragedy":
@Genos Historia
Misinterpretation is one word.
There's no such term as "miss interpretation". You should try and get these sorts of things right, otherwise your critique of David Reich, or anyone else, falls down even before it begins in most people's minds.
But getting back to the matter at hand, I believe that there are two main issues here.
One is that for a long time the scientists at the David Reich Lab put far too much emphasis on distal models.
This, and also the fact that the ancient DNA was usually incomplete and/or sparse, often made it difficult for them to come up with realistic theories to explain the data.
So the other issue is that now they're sort of stuck with several major theories that they can't officially back out of for the time being.
I believe that eventually, as their methods become more effective and their data more complete, they'll correct their theories in new papers.
That's generally how science works, but I do think that it's unfortunate how things have gone in this area of science, due to an over-emphasis on distal models but also an obvious lack of understanding of data from other disciplines that could have acted as constraints/sanity checks.
How the hell anyone seriously suggested that there may have been a migration from an empty Anatolia that repopulated Europe during the Upper Paleolithic is something that I'll never understand.
Let's hope that things do improve significantly from now on. And we can help to ensure here that they do, because believe it or not, this blog, including the comment section, has a big impact.

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:08 am
Ahahahahahahahahahah
Blogger Genos Historia said...
There goes David Reich again with the Asian WHG replacement myth.
Europe's first inhabitants were not replaced by Asian WHG. This myth is a miss interpretation of a small number of DNA samples basically only from France.
WHG in Western Europe came from Italy not Asia. Large areas of Eastern Europe were probably already inhabited by WHG by 20,000 years ago.
May 28, 2021 at 3:19 PM
Blogger Andrzejewski said...
@Rob “ To be fair, Sam, and although Im not a big fan of the style in which Harvard & their Beta-orbiter Labs work (often misinterpreted 'naked' stats in lieu of holistic & nuanced bioarchaeology), Fu et al did state that the alternative to a West Asian Migration was internal migrations. But rag pieces like Science Mag then make headlines like ''Population replacement from West Asia after the LGM", and Reich does tend to play into a rather tabloid version of Science in his tacit approval of these hyperboles.”
It was proven that the pop that came to become dominant in Europe after 7,000BC originated in West Asia. On the other hand, these Anatolian farmers had some affinity to Villabruna cluster, something like 50% or so. Maybe less distal model would discover that there was no out of Anatolia migration after all? Time would tell.
May 28, 2021 at 6:29 PM

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 pm
Blogger Rob said...
@ Genos
“WHG in Western Europe came from Italy”

Not necessarily one place. In fact, I see 2 major & 3 minor proto-WHG refuges in Europe.
May 29, 2021 at 3:37 AM

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 2:55 am
Blogger Slumbery said...
Generally to the CHG - Anatolia - WHG topic. In the past I tried to model CHG and Iran Neolithic in G25 nMontes with whatever populations, just to see what sticks. Not to actually model ancestry, because we do not have the genome of any plausible ancestral pops. Just to see affinities. Not the best method, but I tell you some observations. Take them with caution.
1. CHG is practically allergic to WHG. It "runs" from it however it can. For example Anatolia Pinarbasi always replaced by the younger and geographically more distant Barcin N.
2. CHG otherwise has something to do with Anatolia. If I had to tell the difference between CHG and Iran on the most bare simplistic level, then CHG = Iran - Natufian + Anatolian. ​
These two things have implications about the nature of Paleolithic Anatolians and their connection to WHG, at least for me. My take is that Pinarbasi does not represent the state of deeper Paleolithic populations of the region. It is more likely an admixture from WHG that did not make significant lasting impact. This also means that - at least for me - the idea that WHG is from Anatolia is very implausible.
I also had the impression that Grotta Continenza Mez clusters together with Goyet against Anatolia (and CHG). Again, it is not that Goyet and G_C are super close, but Anatolia still appears to be an outgroup. I'd say that the split between the Goyet line and the main root of the Villabruna group happened inside Europe and the main Villabruna ancestors were already there before the LGM.
May 29, 2021 at 8:31 AM

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 10:59 am
Blogger epoch said...
What is odd, though, is that the pre-LGM caucasian appears to be such a great fit whereas its uniparental markers are not. They do seem to have an origin in Europe. Dzu2 is U6, and Dzu2 and SAT29 are on a branch of N they share with Bacho-Kiro.
"The SAT29 sequence is positionedon a branch together with BK-CC7-355 (42450 ± 510 ka) and BK-BB7-240 (41850 ±480 ka) from the Bacho-Kiro site in Bulgaria, the most ancient west-Eurasian mitochondrial sequences​(Hublin et al., 2020) as well as Dzudzuana3​ (Lazaridis et al.,2018)​."
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf
Wouldn't this suggest a movement from the Balkans? I can't find of any usefull pre-LGM site in Anatolia.
PS: Does anyone know what is holding up the Dzudzuana paper?
May 30, 2021 at 3:08 AM
Blogger Davidski said...
@epoch
Does anyone know what is holding up the Dzudzuana paper?
That's a good question.
I'm guessing that they can't get it through peer review and/or things keep changing dramatically as new samples come in, so the manuscript has to be updated regularly.
May 30, 2021 at 3:19 AM

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:20 pm
I may say once for ever that Slumbery isn't Gioiello but someone I don't know...

Blogger Slumbery said...
When and from where? And how you know it?

BTW I said it does not necessarily mean the coast. The post LGM expansion started out from the general Italy-Balkan-Middle/Lower Danube region. That is what I mean by broad East Med (broad European East Med). Either a part if it or even the entire area, I have not made more specific assumptions. Not in general at least. I think the western side if EHG is from the Balkan,because it already contained Anatolian mix. But even that is very much not the same thing as the Aegean.

May 31, 2021 at 3:14 AM

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 7:39 pm
Gioiello wrote:Blogger Slumbery said...
Generally to the CHG - Anatolia - WHG topic. In the past I tried to model CHG and Iran Neolithic in G25 nMontes with whatever populations, just to see what sticks. Not to actually model ancestry, because we do not have the genome of any plausible ancestral pops. Just to see affinities. Not the best method, but I tell you some observations. Take them with caution.
1. CHG is practically allergic to WHG. It "runs" from it however it can. For example Anatolia Pinarbasi always replaced by the younger and geographically more distant Barcin N.
2. CHG otherwise has something to do with Anatolia. If I had to tell the difference between CHG and Iran on the most bare simplistic level, then CHG = Iran - Natufian + Anatolian. ​
These two things have implications about the nature of Paleolithic Anatolians and their connection to WHG, at least for me. My take is that Pinarbasi does not represent the state of deeper Paleolithic populations of the region. It is more likely an admixture from WHG that did not make significant lasting impact. This also means that - at least for me - the idea that WHG is from Anatolia is very implausible.
I also had the impression that Grotta Continenza Mez clusters together with Goyet against Anatolia (and CHG). Again, it is not that Goyet and G_C are super close, but Anatolia still appears to be an outgroup. I'd say that the split between the Goyet line and [b]the main root of the Villabruna group happened inside Europe and the main Villabruna ancestors were already there before the LGM.
[/b]May 29, 2021 at 8:31 AM


I believe that Italy holds the key to the origin of R1b M269.

Some morons at anthrogenica are still writing about a massive P312 migration from the Steppe even though the scientists can't find any evidence for it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:31 pm
I showed in other blogs or in private letters how my fights of 15 years against who is trying to demonstrate that Italians aren't Italians (but I demonstrated that they aren't who think to be) is more and more shared from other people. As in this blog we are discussing about just J-L283, I'd want to show you this post of one of these persons, and the worst is that he is half Italian:

"Levant Discussion: We have an outlier sample from EBA Sardinia (a contemporary of Bell Beaker) that had substantial Levantine ancestry. During the late Nuragic period, the archeological and historical record shows the direct influence of several major Mediterranean groups, in particular the presence of Mycenaean, Levantine and Cypriot traders. It is likely they would have arrived on the peninsula as well.
Etruscans Discussion: I think the importance of pre-Imperial outliers is being substantially understated. Maybe if an outlier is 1-of-100, then OK, but Antonio tested 3 Etruscans and one had substantial North African ancestry, and a second carries J2b-L283 instead of R-P312 found in Bell Beaker samples from Northern Italy all the way down to Sicily during the Early Bronze Age. I don't know about you but, I don't know how this is unimportant when you had Punics literally just across the Tyrrhenian Sea in Sardinia and Magna Graecia just to the south
" [R. Rocca]

J-L283, overwhelmingly European at least from more than 5000 years ago, would be introgressed in the Etruscan people from some Phoenician living in Sardinia. Apart the fact that I demostrated that pretty always happened the other way around, both for the mt and the Y, otherwise we wouldn't understand why the project of National Gegraphic for finding descendants of Phoenicians in the Mediterranea countries has been closed.
At last also Principe/Hector Troia/Gambarone/Lissa, after many exchange of letters with me, found the words: "Completely different branch of J2b, the J2b in Etruscans is L283>CTS6190, the ones found in the Middle East are under J2b-M205, both have a different demographic migration history. My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222". Of course I have written tons of letters about his line, not Jewish but Italian I think. That J-M205 is from Middle East and not come independently up there from Eastern Mesopotamia and not before 4200 years ago is all to demonstrate.

Another person [Granary] begins to be with us against these haters of Italy:
"As opposed to what? This argument honestly makes no sense to me, in which society did human capital NOT matter? I also don't see how this argument ties in exactly, are we to think that the sons of urban skilled migrants had higher birth rates and replaced rural Italic people in the countryside? Most people lived in settlements with less than a 1000 people, it was not a country of artisans or scribes".
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