Back and forth with Cruciani


Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:43 am
How is it possible that R-V88-Y8447 entered Northern Africa from Southern Europe at least 7200 years ago? We know that very likely the migration from Italy to Iberia happened with the migration of 7500 years ago whose Zilhao spoke about. In fact the first sample in aDNA in Iberia is about 7100 years old. The survived older sample in Europe presuppose subclades separated from 11800 to 7600 years ago, i.e. before this migration. But the starlike expansion in Africa and Near East happened 5100 years ago with R-V88-Y7771, thus also the other samples may have entered in that time. R-V88-FGC20973 presuppose a sample separated from R-V88-7771 7000 years ago, but its expansion happened only 3700 years ago, and the presence of a sample from Saudi Arabia (id:YF04009SAU) in a secondary subclade doesn’t warrant that it was present in Near East already from then, also because the Jewish cluster is downstream FGC21047, and the samples below Y34349 are both Sephardim and Iberians, and it isn’t demonstrated that Iberians were Sephardim introgressed and not the other way around.
The older samples upstream found in Africa from D’Atanasio et al 2018
R-Y8447 V5557/FGC20970/Y8447 * Y8458/FGC20998 formed 7600 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp
• R-Y8447*
o id:S-183new
• R-Y8452 Y8452/FGC21009 formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 7000 ybp
o R-Y8452*
 id:S-204new
cannot be taken as a witness that they were in Africa already from those times, they could be also rare samples brought to Africa with a later migration.
There are many other European subclades that have to be tested at a deep SNPs level for saying more, thus only other data will be able to say a definitive word.

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