My first surname match

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:56 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gio
You do not understand what I am saying. How many descendants did RISE550 produce in the region that he was found? I will tell you, zero, okay.

We know from modern dna that Mr P312 produced millions of descendants in west Europe.. That is the reason that we can say for certain that P312 was born in and expanded in western Europe.

And you cannot say that RISE550 was the ancestor of the English BY3719> FT134593. The English tester has 65 SNPs that no one else has!! Perhaps in the future testers will come along who will break down his 65 SNP block but there is no proof that his ancestor came from Peshany V!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!His ancestor could be from the Balkans.

I2181, Mathieson et al. Nature (2018), Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier from Smyadovo (4550-4455 calBC) is R1b-M269(xZ2103), but no calls for other branches.


The earliest M269 being found in Bulgaria puts an end to a Steppe origin for L51, L52 and L151. The earliest L151 has been found in Switzerland and there is no L151 trail from Poland to Switzerland. The samples in Poland are younger than Switzerland which means that L151's descendants in Poland were the result of a west to east movement.

The Balkans is the most likely place of origin for Z2103 and if there is no Z2103 trail north or south of the Black Sea into Armenia then Z2103 crossed the Black Sea in boats and it looks like any of the descendant branches of L151 did not travel with them.

One has to take on board where the surviving descendants of the Z2118 branch are found today. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/

Some posters thought that P312 originated in Iberia due to the fact that the vast majority of P312 samples in Iberia were P312*. That was until the DF27 SNP was discovered to be the missing link for the Iberians. It is still up for debate, but it is fair to say that there were branches of DF27 in Iberia from at least 2,400 BC.

Posts: 3184
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:37 am
dartraighe wrote:One has to take on board where the surviving descendants of the Z2118 branch are found today. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/


Another moron, whom the Boss of FTDNA called "a stupid goy" and whom I wrote hundreds of letters to, the so called Tiger Walsh but that I'd call "Pet Walsh" (with all the love I have for pets, above all cats):

Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
Personally, I think the current evidence supports a role for R1b-L51 in the genesis of Corded Ware (the CWC-X horizon) in the NW Ukraine/E Slovakia/SE Poland area via Yamnaya.
I agree too but to be fair other routes are still quite viable considerations.
I'm trying to put a nail in the coffin of a Mediterranean route but it can sound reasonable.
Proposition: R1b-L51's main lineage thru L51>P310>L151>P312 branching into West and Central Europe followed a Mediterranean route from the Pontic region to Iberia and then the British Isles.
Points of evidence:
#1) The Bell Beakers and ensuing Atlantic Bronze Age P312 descendants were excellent seafaring people, able to travel from the North Sea to Sardinia. A Black Sea/Mediterranean Sea people would provide an environment for these skills.
#2) Irish Medieval literature, the Lebor Gabála Érenn, claims the ancestors to the Gaels come from Scythia to Egypt and then on to Spain and finally Ireland.
- I'm adding points #3 and #4.
#3) R1b-L51's only other immediate branch besides L51>P310 is L51>PF7589. It has a number of Southern European samples today, and includes a true R-PF7589* individual from Turkey/Anatolian Peninsula.
#4) The earliest R1b-M269 found is in Bulgaria at about 4500 BC, near the Black Sea and not too far from the Sea of Maramar. This is well before the L51 MRCA. This dumps into the Mediterranean.This is not Corded Ware territory and is not Steppes pre-Yamnaya territory.
Last edited by TigerMW; Yesterday at 11:03 PM.

I am writing about this hg. R-L51-PF7589 from more than 10 years. Mine and from Argiedude is the map which is my avatar and of the R1b-L51-PF7589 blog at FB, all the Italian flags in the YFull tree are due to my input etc etc. This person from "Turkey" is our friend Sedar Sabri, whose true origins are from the Balkans (border Greece/Macedonia) and, as I supposed after the samples at Mokrin come from the Eastern Alps, just there, in the land of Old Venetians.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:28 am
Gio
The R1b found in Deriivka arrived from the Balkans. That is the only plausible explanation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deriivka

"A February 2018 study published in Nature included an analysis of 20 individuals buried at Deriivka from ca. 7000 BC to 2700 BC.[2]"

"A Mesolithic male buried at Deriivka ca. 7000 BC to 6700 BC carried the paternal haplogroup R1a and the maternal U5a2a.[2] Five Mesolithic individuals buried at the nearby site of Vasil'evka from ca. 8800 BC to 7500 BC were also analyzed. The three males were found to be carrying paternal haplogroups R1a, I2a1, and R1b1a respectively.[2] With regards to mtDNA, all individuals surveyed, both male and female, carried subclades of maternal haplogroup U5.[2]"

"ighteen Neolithic individuals buried at Deriivka from ca. 5500 BC to 4500 BC were analyzed. Of the sixteen males analyzed, eleven were found to be carriers of R or various subclades of it (particularly R1b1a), while five carried I and subclades of it (I2a2a1b, I2a2a and I2a2a1b1). With regards to mtDNA, all Neolithic individuals, both male and female, belonged to U (particularly subclades of U5 and U4).[2] Fifteen Neolithic individuals buried at the nearby sites of Volniensky, Vilnianka and Vovnigi from to 6500 BC to 4000 BC were also analyzed. Of the fourteen males analyzed, six carried I2a2 and various subclades of it, four carried I, one carried R1b1, one carried R1, one carried I2, and one carried Haplogroup IJ. With regards to mtDNA, all individuals except from a male who carried haplogroup T carried subclades of haplogroup U (U5, U4 and U2).[2]"

"Four Eneolithic invidiuals buried at Deriivka from ca. 4000 BC to 2700 BC were analyzed. With regard to Y-DNA, the male studied carried R1b1a1a2a2. With regards to mtDNA, three individuals carried subclades of U5, while on female carried J2b1."

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:21 am
dartraighe wrote:It took 14 years for a surname YSTR match to show up at FTDNA.


I don't understand why I have a GD of 13 @ 67 markers to the Welsh testers and an estimated TMRCA of 1,800 ybp. I have followed the M222 group with interest for years now and I can see that a lot of them have a GD of 5 @67 markers and a TMRCA of 2,000 ybp. How is it that their YSTR genetic signature is so stable and there are 1,000's of samples with different surnames? The more M222 births you would think the more mutations. It seems that I belong to a really small ydna group and yet we have a lot more YSTR mutations. There has to be a valid reason for it.


From the U106 group.
"The approximate rates of mutation at any given level are:

Y-12 = 1400 years/mutation

Y-25 = 560 years/mutation

Y-37 = 270 years/mutation

Y-67 = 200 years/mutation

Y-111 = 120 years/mutation

BigY-700 private variants ~ 96 years/mutation

BigY-700 non-matching variants ~ 83 years/mutation"

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:42 am
U106 project admin writes.

"I think the "accepted" knowledge that R-U106 in the British Isles is mostly Frisian or Anglo-Saxon in origin is somewhat outdated. We've been trying as a group to move away from that "R-U106 is Germanic, R-P312 is Celtic" philosophy for some years. The real situation is much more dynamic and complex, and you have to look at individual, contemporary haplogroups to pick apart these origins, rather than treating a large haplogroup like R-U106 as a homogeneous blob."


"It is very likely that R-U106 has been in the British Isles since not long after its foundation, nearly 5000 years ago. However, it is a question of quantity, of survival, and of evidence. Around 4200 years ago, it's clear that R-P312>DF13 took over the British Isles and made up a majority of the population. The fraction of R-U106 at that point was, as far as we can tell, zero. Hence, that fraction has probably continually increased since that point. Yet, the earliest hard evidence we have of R-U106 in the British Isles is the 3rd Century AD (the Roman remains in York)."


"The two possible reasons for that disconnect are that R-U106 didn't make up a measurable chunk of British populations until that point, and that it becomes harder to determine these kinds of evidence as haplogroups get older. It's quite probable that there were Celtic (La Tene) settlements in the British Isles that contained significant R-U106 populations, even before the Belgae and Romans. However, we struggle to find direct evidence for this - partly because the proportions seem small, and partly because it's so far back in the past it's hard to be precise about timings, and distributions have spread from their point of immigration."


"The chances of arriving with a pre-Anglo-Saxon migration also varies within R-U106. R-Z156 and R-S1688 both seem to have a larger portion of Celtic ancestry, while R-Z18, R-Z8 and many of the wider R-L48 clades seem to have a higher portion of Germanic ancestry."

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:58 am
23andme dna tests are value for money. As well as autosomal dna reports they will give a result for your ydna and mtdna. They don't go too far downstream but for R1b it is a lot better than M269+. S5556 is the downstream branch that they gave me but the interesting thing is that they say that 1 in 920 23andme customers are S5556+. FTDNA show only 36 testers who are S5556 positive. 23andme has 12 million customers. So there are lots of S5556+ at 23andme, 10,000 or more!!!!

A 37 marker YSTR test at FTDNA and an ancestry+traits test at 23andme would be good for a newbie. M269 for SNP status along with a 37 Y-test at FTDNA is just useless info. A lot of testers at FTDNA have no YSNP status that is of any value to them if they are interested in their specific Y line. YSTR tests alone are pointless.

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:56 pm
dartraighe wrote:23andme dna tests are value for money. As well as autosomal dna reports they will give a result for your ydna and mtdna. They don't go too far downstream but for R1b it is a lot better than M269+. S5556 is the downstream branch that they gave me but the interesting thing is that they say that 1 in 920 23andme customers are S5556+. FTDNA show only 36 testers who are S5556 positive. 23andme has 12 million customers. So there are lots of S5556+ at 23andme, 10,000 or more!!!!

A 37 marker YSTR test at FTDNA and an ancestry+traits test at 23andme would be good for a newbie. M269 for SNP status along with a 37 Y-test at FTDNA is just useless info. A lot of testers at FTDNA have no YSNP status that is of any value to them if they are interested in their specific Y line. YSTR tests alone are pointless.


I checked my 23andme raw data file for YSNPs and there are 3,500 YSNPs in it. S5556 is i705809 genotype G.

FGC11134 is rs138322855
DF21 is rs762444220

Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:37 pm
Here is a link to Dr. Iain McDonalds paper.

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/TMRCA.pdf
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